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  #1  
Old 09-21-2021, 08:43 AM
RobertDorn RobertDorn is offline
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Default HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

Hi HDX users!

A question from a native user to HDX users:

When I have a virtual instrument routed to a bus and record enable the virtual instrument, will that create a low latency path for the aux (when hybrid engine is enabled on that aux or if the session is running in HDX classic mode) the virtual instrument is routed to. So that I have the same low latency playability as when the virtual instrument track is directly routed to the monitor out?

I'm asking this because pro tools has a huge delay compensation bug when plugins like LFO tool, Soundtoys Tremolator, waves pumper are running completely out of sync, once there live plugins in a pro tools session that add sample delay. (for those interested and working around this, currently filed by AVID support as pro tools bug PT-263943 as critical)

Routing tracks with such plugins to a bus will do the delay compensation on the bus and keep the sample delay low or even zero depending on the plugins inserted on the tracks I have these type of plugin on and that's my current work around for this problem.


However, when working with Pro Tools ultimate natively, because of the bus catching the sample delay compensation, I cannot play virtual instruments routed to a bus without having heavy latency.
Really curious how this works in a HDX setting, as I'm investigating to move over to a HDX setup.

Greetings!
Robert
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2021, 02:06 PM
LDS LDS is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

I don’t think you’ll even be able to put a track with a VI on it into DSP mode, as the VI won’t be a DSP plug-in. It will be bypassed when you try and do it.

Sometimes when you get into more complex routing situations with channels of audio that are record armed, the latency you are experiencing can be the result of delay compensation being doubled up. For example, recorded armed channel -> bus -> record armed channel -> output. It isn’t possible for pro tools (or any DAW as far as I am aware) to differentiate between the time of arrival of audio on those two record armed channels. Perhaps check out ‘blue mode’ by right clicking on the ‘cmp’ in the delay compensation panel below the fader for the bus or some of your record armed channels, and turning delay compensation off.

Delay compensation ultimately calculates the total delay to align audio at the output. In some situations you don’t want it to be doing it.
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2021, 02:28 PM
RobertDorn RobertDorn is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

Thanks men for your reply!

I was guessing already that protools would disable the virtual instrument when that instrument channel is routed to an AUX that is placed on the DSP path.

Indeed disabling the output delay compensation on the bus solves the delay while playing /recording. However if I punch in on an instrument track that already contains recorded material on it, it’s a true hell to listen to, and then I rather route it away from the bus directly to the monitor path and route it back when done recording.

There seems to be sort of an exemption for time-based non-dsp plug-ins like reverbs that can be set to DSP-safe mode, so they will stay ‘live’ when tracks are in DSP mode. If that could be done for virtual instruments also, that would be great.

LUNA (that new daw of universal audio) solves it by placing instrument (and also audio) tracks directly to the monitor path as soon as you record enable a track with their ARM mode enabled. So there are daws that already know how to manage handling of virtual instrument playability within a hybrid/DSP based mixing workflow. I hope it could be implemented in Pro Tools as well since I’m no way as fast in other DAWs as in pro tools.
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Last edited by RobertDorn; 09-21-2021 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:05 PM
LDS LDS is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDorn View Post
Thanks men for your reply!

I was guessing already that protools would disable the virtual instrument when that instrument channel is routed to an AUX that is placed on the DSP path.

Indeed disabling the output delay compensation on the bus solves the delay while playing /recording. However if I punch in on an instrument track that already contains recorded material on it, it’s a true hell to listen to, and then I rather route it away from the bus directly to the monitor path and route it back when done recording.

There seems to be sort of an exemption for time-based non-dsp plug-ins like reverbs that can be set to DSP-safe mode, so they will stay ‘live’ when tracks are in DSP mode. If that could be done for virtual instruments also, that would be great.

LUNA (that new daw of universal audio) solves it by placing instrument (and also audio) tracks directly to the monitor path as soon as you record enable a track with their ARM mode enabled. So there are daws that already know how to manage handling of virtual instrument playability within a hybrid/DSP based mixing workflow. I hope it could be implemented in Pro Tools as well since I’m no way as fast in other DAWs as in pro tools.
I should have been clearer in my reply - I am specifically talking about the Hybrid engine. Pro Tools DSP systems in classic mode have allowed VIs to feed directly into DSP mix engines for many, many, many years. It doesn't create a low latency monitoring environment, though. It is perhaps the worst of both native & DSP worlds in a sense, as it adds the native sample buffer of the VI to the inherent latency of the DSP mix engine together, making the latency worse than either native or DSP alone.

I suspect that is why the Hybrid engine works the way it does. The Safe-Mode of time-based effects is something altogether different again. Even in Pro Tools DSP systems in Classic mode, it is very common to put native reverb plugins on aux channels with little consequence to latency. It gets perceived as pre-delay in the reverb rather than ping of latency. Fewer and fewer software developers even make DSP reverbs as a result. It doesn't reduce latency... it just keeps native plugins in the monitor path.
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2021, 03:57 AM
RobertDorn RobertDorn is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDS View Post
I should have been clearer in my reply - I am specifically talking about the Hybrid engine. Pro Tools DSP systems in classic mode have allowed VIs to feed directly into DSP mix engines for many, many, many years. It doesn't create a low latency monitoring environment, though. It is perhaps the worst of both native & DSP worlds in a sense, as it adds the native sample buffer of the VI to the inherent latency of the DSP mix engine together, making the latency worse than either native or DSP alone.

I suspect that is why the Hybrid engine works the way it does. The Safe-Mode of time-based effects is something altogether different again. Even in Pro Tools DSP systems in Classic mode, it is very common to put native reverb plugins on aux channels with little consequence to latency. It gets perceived as pre-delay in the reverb rather than ping of latency. Fewer and fewer software developers even make DSP reverbs as a result. It doesn't reduce latency... it just keeps native plugins in the monitor path.
Allright, allright... I searched about the whole forum on this topic and indeed read that for work with virtual instruments the 'classic HDX' mode is actually preferred over the new Hybrid Engine. But do you perhaps have experience with how this works in real world use? I can imagine that on paper it's a pity when you start with a funky fresh session, add an instrument track with a VI, and it already has some extra samples of delay in HDX classic compared to doing this in a native environment.

But will this stay steady once you're at a 100 track session with also native plugins adding 3000+ samples of delay to tracks. That's where it goes terribly wrong with plugins like LFO tool, arpeggiated VI patches playing back out of sync unless you 'Disable plugin delay' on the track (but this creates another problem because the actual played midi notes are not in time with the click anymore)

Long story short: is there any benefit with HDX when you try to produce a song with virtual instruments and audio tracks that have bpm-synced plugins like LFO tool, Effectrix etc on them. It's definitely not possible at the moment (unless you don't care about completely messed up timing haha) with Pro Tools native, so I'm wondering if it can be done with Pro Tools HDX
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  #6  
Old 09-22-2021, 05:04 AM
LDS LDS is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDorn View Post
Allright, allright... I searched about the whole forum on this topic and indeed read that for work with virtual instruments the 'classic HDX' mode is actually preferred over the new Hybrid Engine. But do you perhaps have experience with how this works in real world use? I can imagine that on paper it's a pity when you start with a funky fresh session, add an instrument track with a VI, and it already has some extra samples of delay in HDX classic compared to doing this in a native environment.

But will this stay steady once you're at a 100 track session with also native plugins adding 3000+ samples of delay to tracks. That's where it goes terribly wrong with plugins like LFO tool, arpeggiated VI patches playing back out of sync unless you 'Disable plugin delay' on the track (but this creates another problem because the actual played midi notes are not in time with the click anymore)

Long story short: is there any benefit with HDX when you try to produce a song with virtual instruments and audio tracks that have bpm-synced plugins like LFO tool, Effectrix etc on them. It's definitely not possible at the moment (unless you don't care about completely messed up timing haha) with Pro Tools native, so I'm wondering if it can be done with Pro Tools HDX

The variable isn’t HDX - it provides highly measurable and repeatable performance because it’s based in DSP. The native system, particularly with VIs will be the variable. HDX May help keep your native sample buffers low for longer… or it might not help much at all if your sample buffers are already low.

In any case, 3000 samples of plug-in delay in any session is a heck of a lot.
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2021, 08:00 AM
digiot digiot is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

I started routing all my VI's to a sub group that's DSP enabled with DSP Plugins on it, on my Carbon.
Its hard to explain but this Avid Video might help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aEPn0lYyk
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  #8  
Old 09-30-2021, 02:11 PM
RobertDorn RobertDorn is offline
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Default Re: HDX Classic / Hybrid engine low latency bus routing question

Quote:
Originally Posted by digiot View Post
I started routing all my VI's to a sub group that's DSP enabled with DSP Plugins on it, on my Carbon.
Its hard to explain but this Avid Video might help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aEPn0lYyk
Yes, I can see that's a good work around, since bussing tracks with midi-synced plugins like LFO tool, will put the delay compensation to the bus so that the VI track is in sync again. however, as soon as you'd like to add any plugin that's more than 0 samples delay to a VI track, (and VI tracks can't have DSP plugins in Hybrid engine mode) the work-around is broken again.

However, I got several conformations this week from avid support that they're currently actively working on a fix for the midi-sync bug that affects these kind of plugins on audio tracks and instrument tracks, and also one-note triggered arpeggiated patches in virtual instruments that run out of sync as soon as plugin-sample delay in a pro tools session adds up.
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