Logic into Protools. An idea for someone to steal.

[John Tooker]

Please steal my idea.

RAD the Rewire Audio Driver.

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What is it for...

Getting Logic's audio output into Protools using Rewire 2.0 and a small audio/midi virtual driver that is also a Rewire Synth/Slave program.

This idea might also help users of any Rewire Mixer/Master only application feed it into any other Rewire Mixer/Master application. Or even for connecting any non-Rewire enabled application into any Rewire Mixer/Master application.

I.E.
Sonar into Cubase
Digital Performer into Protools
Acid Into Cubase
GarageBand into Protools
Sound Forge into Cubase
ect..

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Why I need this...

In my normal working method I use Protools as my main audio multi-tracking device and use Reason as a synth/sequencer/drum machine for quickie parts and loops. I also use Live to time stretch loops or older parts. As soon as possible I commit the parts to audio in Protools and close the "rewired" application.

However...

When it comes to hardcore sequencing with synth madness and processing Logic 6 is my big gun. I need Logic to work as smoothly with Protools as Reason and Live do but it won't because Protools is a Rewire Mixer/Master and Logic is a Rewire Mixer/Master and one of them would need to be a Rewire Synth/Slave in order for Rewire to connect them.

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The fix...

Apple have not made Logic into a Rewire Synth (and this is a problem with other applications as well) but hopefully I might've come up with a method that doesn't require a Rewire 3.0.

If there was a virtual audio/midi driver that thought of itself as a Rewire Synth/Slave you could route any audio feeding this "Rewire Audio Driver" straight into any Rewire Mixer/Master program. It would require the Rewire Audio Driver to have at least a virtual pair of outputs and a midi input and output for transport control functions.


The signal flow would be like this:

1-Logic feeds the Rewire Audio Driver as if it were a physical output on the computer. It is selected like any other USB/Firewire/PCI audio device in OS X. In addition Logic uses the transport and location control from the Rewire Audio Driver as if it were physical midi connectors on the same virtual USB/Firewire/PCI audio device.

2-The Rewire Audio Driver connects to Protools in the same manner that Reason and Live do, as an insert-able Rewire Synth/Slave with Protools acting as the Rewire Mixer/Master application outputting and receiving midi/transport control from the virtual audio/midi interface.


The order of application startup would be:

1-Protools is started and has a session loaded.

2-The Rewire Audio Driver is inserted on an Aux or Audio Track in the Protools Mixer. When the plugin is instantiated the Rewire Audio Driver automatically launches (the same way that Reason is launched automatically) and starts feeding audio into Protools.

3-Logic is started and a session is loaded.

4-The audio output in Logic is set to the core audio driver named Rewire Audio Driver.

At this point if Protools is not in "Low Latency Monitoring" hitting play in Logic should make any output show up in Protools. I think you would have to set Logic into MMC mode to react to the transport functions. ****On a side note if this is the case then Logic could be used as a working environment while Protools makes an audio document of everything done (while Protools was recording) regardless of stopping and starting Logic. A useful function for songwriting or sound design such as throwing loops or guitar parts at other tracks in Protools looking for a "happy accident."****

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Other notes...

It should be possible to create a multi-port "Rewire Audio Driver" with multi-port midi capability but I'll settle for a functioning stereo audio bus and transport control and synchronization.

Another unrelated idea might be to use a Rewire Audio Driver to create a virtual Audio Input for a computer. This might make it easy to take the output of Reason or other Rewire Synth/Slave programs and send them into iChat for streaming over the internet or wireless LAN or feeding audio into a non-Rewired program.


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What will it take...

Someone (Propellerheads or Digidesign maybe?) to make a virtual audio/midi device that thinks it's a Rewire Synth/Slave. They would need to be a company so that they could become an authorized Rewire Developer. They would need some experience with making drivers for OS X (m-Audio/Digidesign Emagic/Apple I'm looking at you here) or Windows. In particular they would need to know how the drivers for USB/Firewire type devices can be added and removed without a restart since this is what the Rewire Audio Driver would need to do.

And finally they must gimme! Gimme! Gimme! I want! I want! I want!

-Thanks
Tooker of Marqui Adora
October 19, 2004

The website for this idea:
http://homepage.mac.com/johntooker/RAD/Personal6.html

tooker@marquiadora.con change the con to com

[Rail Jon Rogut]

A ReWire HOST can only receive audio via the ReWire buss. Both Logic and Pro Tools are hosts.

What you want (and I'm not sure if it's possible) is someone to create a new stand-alone app which is also a ReWire host -- they would then also have to create an Audio Units, TDM and RTAS plug-in which is a ReWire Slave which could be inserted on the master fader in either Logic or Pro Tools (or both).. the audio would be sent from the plug-ins to the standalone host app which would be able to mix the sources together... (I would forsee a program which has stereo or mono channels with automated level controls)... The standalone host app would be responsible for your Master Output.

The only company I can think of which could even do a feasability study would be FXPansion.. so you should contact them.

Rail

[John Tooker]

A ReWire HOST can only receive audio via the ReWire buss. Both Logic and Pro Tools are hosts.

Yes this is correct I used the language from the Propellerheads. They refer to Rewire Mixers (the host application) and to Rewire Synths (the programming feeding sound into the host).

What you want (and I'm not sure if it's possible) is someone to create a new stand-alone app which is also a ReWire host -- they would then also have to create an Audio Units, TDM and RTAS plug-in which is a ReWire Slave which could be inserted on the master fader in either Logic or Pro Tools (or both).. the audio would be sent from the plug-ins to the standalone host app which would be able to mix the sources together... (I would forsee a program which has stereo or mono channels with automated level controls)... The standalone host app would be responsible for your Master Output.

No I'm going another way.

My idea is to create an application that is a Rewire Synth (or slave) and at the same time a Core Audio Driver.
It would be similiar in function to FXPansions VST to Rewire adapter in that it would route audio into Rewire but instead it's source would be a fake Core Audio Drive as well as having a fake set of MIDI ports.

All of the "source" programs (Logic in my case) would see a normal Core Audio Driver as their output.

The Rewire Mixer/Master/Host programs input (an insert in Protools LE in my case) would see a Rewire Synth/Slave program.

Signal flow would be this:
Logics main output is set to Rewire Audio Driver->the Rewire Audio Driver outputs that signal as a Rewire Synth/Slave->this Rewire signal then feeds an insert in Protools

Midi and Control on the source would act as if it were speaking to a piece of hardware with regards to routing and transport control.

MIDI and control in the host program would think it is communicating with a Rewire Synth program.

Thanks for the feedback. Please give me more when you have a chance.

The only company I can think of which could even do a feasability study would be FXPansion.. so you should contact them.

Rail

I'll bring it to them as well.

[travista00]

i've been wanting logic to be a rewire slave so i could use it alongside pro tools for a long time. ableton's live is both a rewire slave and rewire master application. it follows that this type of functionality could be implemented into logic as well. i'd easily pay $1000 to use logic pro 7 as a virtual synth rack with some great fx! let's make it happen...

[Angus_FX]

Hi all,

Have you investigated this:-

http://www.jackosx.com/

It should allow you to pipe audio from Logic to VST-RTAS wrapped plug-ins in Pro Tools (Logic will talk directly to JACK; PT will not, but will do so via RTAS, VST, and the Jack-VST plug-ins).

I've not tested it myself, but if it looks workable we will make sure that VST-RTAS supports it well.

[John Tooker]

Thanks for the input Angus.

I'm trying out the newer version of Jack OS X right now and it has improved but I still think it's a little bit of a PC style program.

I'll keep trying with it and see if I can get it to be dirt simple. The one thing that concerns me is that the MIDI connection and audio connection would need to be established each time. My early experiments with Running Logic into Live 4 have resulted in a few crashes of an otherwise stable machine but I'll keep trying it with my other programs.

Do you think Jack would work with your VST to Rewire wrapper in a setup like this:

Logic feeding into Jack's Core Audio Drive
The VST-Rewire wrapped Jack pluggin feeding Protools LE

If this worked it might be better if there was a way to get the transport functions into Logic.

Thanks again for the idea.

Anyone else?

[Angus_FX]

Jack a PC program? Nope - it comes from Unix. Not sure if that is better or worse

The setup you describe should work, BUT, the transport functions won't work that way - my guess is, you will additionally have to set up an IAC MIDI bus, and get ProTools to send transport commands as MMC and get Logic to receive them.

[DTM Prod]

Angus;
I see that Cycling 74 has a free product called 'Sunflowerbed'. It's supposed to be able to route audio from any app into another as well. Are you aware of it or checked it's possibilities? I haven't used Logic much, but if there's an easy way to connect Pt & Logic, I'd definitely be interested in pursuing that option.
Dan

[MarcoM]

Hi guys,

just tried what Angus suggested and it doesn't work. I can get Logic 7 to output to CoreAudio Jack, and I can route it, but the RTAS-wrapped version of Jack-VST doesn't let the audio through.

I was soooo close... the wrapped VST plug does show up on Jack's console as 'ProTools VST recevier', and in ProTools (tried on an Aux input) the plug-in is definitely active, but after I made the connection between Logic Pro and ProTools on Jack's router panel, the audio still wouldn't get through. I'm sure it'll get as far as the VST end, perhaps the wrapper isn't compatible (yet).

Has anyone else tried this? I got Logic to chase ProTools through the IAC bus, so controlling Logic from Tools is quite easy. But I desperately need the audio!

[relaxo]

Slightly off the center here, but does anyone do this:

-slave logic to pt via the iac

-send audio out of logic through the adat port on a g5

-connect the other end of the adat cable to an "adat in" port on a pt interface to then be recorded or auxed into the pt session?

Thanks,

Scott