Getting a warmer sound with single coil pickups(?)

[Mitchflappi]

what is a FOH guys?

sorry to bother you but i am also thinking of buying FRFR monitors as with combo amps (as far as i read stuffs here and on internet) people suggest to cut cabs simulation but I bought 11r especially for that lol...

And with my combo fender deluxe hotrod, I was always putting the entire rig (rig output in edit menu output to amp) in my combo amp (front guitar entry) and I had warm sound due to my tube amp...I also did play with mic selection and "in axis" "off axis" speaker break up etc

BUT I did not really at any time realise it could be wrong with my config..., I never experimented an "out of phase sound" as many are talking about and the same guys are suggesting to select "rig out no cab" parameter to have a good sound, but in my case I had warm tone with my config so, how to see the difference sometimes it is subtle, or maybe when you have dedicated seperated cabinet with a head preamp maybe the difference in sound is much bigger...? also when you plug in fxloop of your amp is the sound changing? (I have no fx loop lol my amp is to simple..and to old hahaha i think it is just power amp in or out i do not remember)

[CME]

FOH= front of house. Aka the main PA.

All amps affect the tone to some degree. If you're plugging into the guitar input of your amp, you're definitely going to alter the tone.

First you have the preamp which is not eq'd anywhere near close to flat. On most amps setting the bass and highs to 0 and the mids to 10 will get you as close to flat as possible. Not saying that's gonna sound good. Just saying how "unflat" the EQ is on a guitar preamp.

Then you get to the power amp. Most are designed to be fairly flat and linear. But most will "sag" or compress as volume increases. Tube amps are gonna be more prone to this.

Then you have the speaker and it's cab. Something else that has no where near a flat frequency response. Pretty much all cabs are gonna start rolling off highs some where around 6-8k. And the mids will vary a lot from speaker to speaker.

Now realize all that is also built into the 11R's full rig. Not saying you can't or aren't getting tones with the full rig on. You're just not hearing exactly what the 11R is doing by playing through a guitar amp.

Also if your amp had a preamp out and power amp in. That is an effects loop. Just before they were referred to as one. Make sure and double check. Even triple check it is a power amp "IN". DO NOT plug into a power amp out. Then if it is a "IN" plug in there and see what it sounds like. You won't be able to adjust with the amps EQ, but it will sound different. Better or not is up to you.


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[Mitchflappi]

It sounds more clear to me when you said, "I am not hearing what the 11R is doing" yeah i might be pretty close to that lol

I will try this evening to plug into my "power amp in" entry with "rig output" on 11R parameter and see if there is better or worst result...

Anyway I think it is kind of problematic in a practical way if you wanna use the 11R as a plug and play stuff, cos for each situtation you have to choose a different "out" setting, so we are obliged to save for example 10 rigs for PA EQ, the same 10 rigs for our combo amp EQ situation, and maybe another 10 same rigs for headphones and so on...almost annoying but that's the part of the game if we want to get the best out of it I think...

[CME]

Yep. Kind of a hassle but that is also a great thing about having presets.

Also try defeating the mic and cab sims and see what you think.

Fwiw I don't own an 11R, but would like to. I've also used several of the PODs and now am mainly using a sansamp British pedal direct to the FOH. I have always gotten the best results by going direct. However I have used some of my amps as power amps with the modelers. When I do that I always preferred to turn any cab/mic sims off. But ymmv.

Let us know what you think.


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[PatriotsBiker]

@orangecountrycarl,
I spent the better part of an afternoon trying to get a Rig sounding decently based on the Black Duo ('Twin Reverb) I have a 'Twin Reverb and a Blues Deluxe, both re-issues. My goal was to get the same feeling playing my 11R through my cheap Mackie 8" monitors as I did with the amp in my office, which is the BDRI.

I struggled a good bit. Each thing I tried either made it much worse or only got me part of the way there. The answer for me was to get the volumes up without just being loud. The amps I have are 1X12 and 2X12. I wanted that sound coming from my headphones, my monitors and on a track in PT.

I also wanted something that I could plug in to without worry about if it's using single or hb pickups. That goal was a bit lofty, although I did get to a suitable solution. Minor tweeks on the amp vol setting seems to do it.

Below are my settings. I placed an "*" next to settings that I remember taking me a while to blend together, but played a big role when done. This has been a few months, so forgive my memory short comings. :)
Here we go, in order.
True Z: Auto 230k ohm

FX-1: "Gray Comp"
*Sustain 2.0
*Level 6.5

Amp: "Black Duo"
*vol 5.0
treb 5.6
mid 4.4
bass 5.5
*amp out vol : 17.4
Bright ON
page 2 amp/vibrato settings
vibrato off (most of the time)
speed 35
sync off
inten 3.0
gate off
rel 29.6
out 17.4

Cab: "2X12 Black Duo"
mic Cond 414
on axis
speaker break up 0.0

FX-2: "Graphic EQ"
*100 -5.1
370 0
800 0
2k 0
3.25k 0
*out 5

Reverb: "Black Spring"
Mix 3.0
Decay 3.0
Tone 2.0


I also have a tube screamer set up for use on another Rig using this one as a base. I'll eventually do one for the fuzz and the others.

I don't think I fully grasp the big picture yet. I do know that for me, it was a question of getting levels up so that it feels like I am in the same room as the amp. I have been told that my Strat tone sounds deep and full, or as someone else said, a "nice big tone for a Strat.".

I do have to make slight modifications when recording into PT if I want to come in a bit lighter than "just under clipping". The safest place for me to do so and retain my tone is to bring the amp vol down to 4.5 (or so). I probably do that because it's right there in front of me. I bet the better place would be the EQ Out.

I know that the first place most would adjust to reduce wout be the "amp out vol" that I have jacked up to 17.5. Doing this slightly is OK, but going down to maybe even 13.X takes a bit away from the feeling of being in the same room as the amp thing I was going after.

I do remember having to bump up the out on the EQ to make up for taking away some of the lows. The low end on LP and others was a bit too thick for this rig, and doing this adjustment allowed me to get the rest of it up a bit more.

Well, I hope this helps. If anyone's still reading and has comments or suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

[orangecountycarl]

Yes, back to my original post...

Originally Posted by PatriotsBiker

@orangecountrycarl,
I also wanted something that I could plug in to without worry about if it's using single or hb pickups. That goal was a bit lofty, although I did get to a suitable solution. Minor tweeks on the amp vol setting seems to do it.

Thank you, PB, for the good suggestions (all of it I will save and print out to try this week.....thank you!)

Yes, I used to have one patch for humbuckers and the same tweaked for single coil pickups.

This past week I didn't have much time so (on the bandstand) I tried changing the input Z to 70 + cap and it seemed to help a bit. The type of single coils have a big effect. My Strat with DiMarzio Area 67s are still brittle sounding through the 11R. The same guitar plugged into a *solid state* amp (Peavey Transfex 208s) loses that brittle tone.

I am going to work through your and David's suggestions this week and experiment. Thanks!

[orangecountycarl]

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil

Carl, have you experimented with mic selection and speaker breakup?

Tonight I had time to play with the 11R.

Thank you to David for pointing out what should have been obvious to me since the 11R models every component of the sound....not just the amp.

Mic selection makes a HUGE impact to the high end. I discovered I did not care for any mic that ended in 7.....especially the 57. Using any of the 4xx mics was better.

Thank you to PatriotsBiker for the patch. I discovered another HUGE thing which PB pointed out:

Cranking the amp volume help quite a bit and the sound was completely different (better) compared to cranking the master volume and keeping the amp volume at 0.0.

I am going to use this value of 17.x for starting all of my patches. I did find this patch too bassy for my Les Paul so I will have to tweak it, but it was a fine starting point.

I think this is going to work the more I play with these suggestions. Thanks David and PB!

[orangecountycarl]

Having my amp out levels previously low (near 0) is also why I could not hear myself at the gig. My K10 was full up and the 11R's master volume was around 8.5. Yet, I could not hear myself with the other band members and the P.A. volume.

[PatriotsBiker]

Sweet! Nothing like solving a few problems with one stone. :)

I'm curious to find out where you end up with the bass settings. I dropped the 100 freq range to -5.1, but didn't do anything with the 370. Truth be told, I don't hear the ultra-lows very well. My Epi LPs both are still a little thick, I think. At least on the neck position.

edit: I have gone in the opposite direction with the "AMP OUT VOL" setting on at least one rig. For example, I found that I really enjoy the amp's master volumes on the Plexiglas to be dimed. In turn, I dropped the "AMP OUT VOL" to -0.9. I'm not as done with this Rig as I am with the 'Twin rig yet, so that may change.

My luck was to stumble on a Rig somewhere and think to myself, "gee, I wish this was just louder so that I could hear it, but without altering the tone." That eventually lead me to mess with the amp out volumes. That, and the time honored ried and true analog approach of using the EQ as a volume boost.

[TieDyedDevil]

Glad it worked out, Carl.

Yah, it's important to remember that the 11R is modeling a mic'd amp...

I like to pick an amp for its touch response and overall tonality, then fine-tune with mic placement. Speaker breakup - especially in the lower ranges - is subtle, but can really add that last "ten percent"...

Mixing and matching speaker cabs with amps can be productive, too.

Your comment about gain-staging was interesting. I'm kind of surprised that you hadn't complained about hiss with the K10 dimed.