Recording with Zildjian Gen 16's

[mrcashback]

Howdy....
Just looking for everyones opinions on best practice recording when it comes to the zildjian gen 16's on an electric kit.

I know plenty of you will tell me they arent great for recording and to go buy some better cymbals (I have a kit of aax's, but want to see what can be done with these), but that's not really the info I'm looking for... What I'm after, is, when recording with gen 16's:

- Do you record straight from the zildjian DSP output
- Do you run the pickups direct to your interface first on individual tracks, and then back through the zildjian DSP before returning to a final track to record both wet and dry signals for "re-amping" later?
- Do you use a traditional overhead setup and record the raw sound with mics?
- Do you instead mic the speakers after effects and amping like one may do for a guitar track?

I've only just got the gen 16's, and bareley even set them up yet, but, they're unbeleivably better to play than any electric cymbal ive used.
first thought tells me that running the pickups to the interface before the DSP would provide for the most options and flexibility to get a good and changeable sound? But then I wonder, how is power for the blue LED light on the pickups being handled and what impact/limitations does that create?? Do i run phantom power from my interface to the pickups, and am i going to break anything plugging my interfaces outputs to the (im presuming) powered pickup inputs on the zildjian dsp given that that's not what it was designed for?

The thought of running overheads to a quiet cymbal on an electric kit gives me thoughts of picking up too much pad and stick noise on the track

Theres always sample replacement options, in which case what would y'all use for triggering these to get the most dynamic out of them (although stripping away the natural dynamic does seem to defeat the purpose of getting the gen 16s in the first place)

If someone from zildjian reads this: Usb output of the dry signals would make a nice revision in the next edition, as well as trigger velocities on each track would make for some extended possibilities

What do you guys do/reccomend/think on the matter? I'm quite interested to hear everyone elses thoughts

[Bill Denton]

From what I read a while back, you cannot plug the cymbals directly into an interface...you must use the DSP unit...however, I don't remember why.

People do all sorts of strange things these days, but why are you concerned about overheads? Originally they were only intended to catch the cymbals...whatever bleed occurred was generally not considered a "good" thing.

But, if you're trying to get some sort of ambience or vibe out of the overheads you're probably going to have to fake it some how.

But, however you deal with the cymbals, please post back and let us know how it works...I've considered picking up a Gen 16 set sometime...

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by mrcashback

Howdy....
Just looking for everyones opinions on best practice recording when it comes to the zildjian gen 16's on an electric kit.

I know plenty of you will tell me they arent great for recording and to go buy some better cymbals (I have a kit of aax's, but want to see what can be done with these), but that's not really the info I'm looking for... What I'm after, is, when recording with gen 16's:

- Do you record straight from the zildjian DSP output
- Do you run the pickups direct to your interface first on individual tracks, and then back through the zildjian DSP before returning to a final track to record both wet and dry signals for "re-amping" later?
- Do you use a traditional overhead setup and record the raw sound with mics?
- Do you instead mic the speakers after effects and amping like one may do for a guitar track?

I've only just got the gen 16's, and bareley even set them up yet, but, they're unbeleivably better to play than any electric cymbal ive used.
first thought tells me that running the pickups to the interface before the DSP would provide for the most options and flexibility to get a good and changeable sound? But then I wonder, how is power for the blue LED light on the pickups being handled and what impact/limitations does that create?? Do i run phantom power from my interface to the pickups, and am i going to break anything plugging my interfaces outputs to the (im presuming) powered pickup inputs on the zildjian dsp given that that's not what it was designed for?

The thought of running overheads to a quiet cymbal on an electric kit gives me thoughts of picking up too much pad and stick noise on the track

Theres always sample replacement options, in which case what would y'all use for triggering these to get the most dynamic out of them (although stripping away the natural dynamic does seem to defeat the purpose of getting the gen 16s in the first place)

If someone from zildjian reads this: Usb output of the dry signals would make a nice revision in the next edition, as well as trigger velocities on each track would make for some extended possibilities

What do you guys do/reccomend/think on the matter? I'm quite interested to hear everyone elses thoughts

You're going to need the dsp box so take your audio output from there.

As far as using traditional overhead mics on these along with the rest of your e-kit? Don't do it for the reasons you cite. E-kit pads can be quite loud as a result of the sticks hitting the pads and the Gen16's don't lend well to overhead mic techniques.

But you're on the right track with a hybrid kit with the Gen16's and whatever is the rest of your setup. One of the best composite sounds I've heard out of that kind of setup was Gen16's along with a Roland TD20 e-kit (not using the Roland cymbal pads). But I wouldn't totally ignore the e-kit cymbals if you can reassign them to trigger other sounds than just cymbals. This would allow for adding percussion pieces to your kit without buying more triggers (or you could even get a quasi-Neil Peart setup this way - he actually uses a Roland TD20 along with his DW acoustic kit).

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by musicman691

You're going to need the dsp box so take your audio output from there.

As far as using traditional overhead mics on these along with the rest of your e-kit? Don't do it for the reasons you cite. E-kit pads can be quite loud as a result of the sticks hitting the pads and the Gen16's don't lend well to overhead mic techniques.

But you're on the right track with a hybrid kit with the Gen16's and whatever is the rest of your setup. One of the best composite sounds I've heard out of that kind of setup was Gen16's along with a Roland TD20 e-kit (not using the Roland cymbal pads). But I wouldn't totally ignore the e-kit cymbals if you can reassign them to trigger other sounds than just cymbals. This would allow for adding percussion pieces to your kit without buying more triggers (or you could even get a quasi-Neil Peart setup this way - he actually uses a Roland TD20 along with his DW acoustic kit).

Gen16's along with a Roland TD20

That's what I was thinking in terms of if I could ever afford it.

I was also thinking of using the Roland cymbals for stuff like cowbells or tambourines or some other percussion...

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

Gen16's along with a Roland TD20

That's what I was thinking in terms of if I could ever afford it.

I was also thinking of using the Roland cymbals for stuff like cowbells or tambourines or some other percussion...

That's what I was getting at with my later comments. Could make for one funky kit. I haven't tried out a TD30 yet (successor to the TD20).

You know what's really strange is an e-kit is WAY more expensive than most acoustic kits. I could get a real nice custom DW acoustic Collector's series kit for what a TD30 costs.

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by musicman691

That's what I was getting at with my later comments. Could make for one funky kit. I haven't tried out a TD30 yet (successor to the TD20).

You know what's really strange is an e-kit is WAY more expensive than most acoustic kits. I could get a real nice custom DW acoustic Collector's series kit for what a TD30 costs.

I've noticed on their last couple of releases Roland seems to be offering the extremely expensive kit as a "road" kit, with the next step down being touted as a "studio" kit.

I know the hardware and other pieces are a little bit different, but for me I'm sure the second tier kit would be fine for my studio...

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

I've noticed on their last couple of releases Roland seems to be offering the extremely expensive kit as a "road" kit, with the next step down being touted as a "studio" kit.

I know the hardware and other pieces are a little bit different, but for me I'm sure the second tier kit would be fine for my studio...

The only real differences are in the cymbal pads and the rack and there's one less 'floor tom' pad. Actually Roland does not tout either TD30 kit for a specific use but rather suitable for both stage or recording. And don't forget Roland has a bunch of different ekits available.

There is one thing I don't like about the Roland TD30 system - the wiring harness is inside the rack tubes which makes it difficult to customize the setup to one's needs or preferences or to use a Gibraltar rack with all it's accessories. I'd like to have 4 rack toms but offset to the drummer's left and the ride cymbal where the low pitch rack tom normally sits ala Neil Peart. Roland brain has the extra inputs but I'd have to scrap the harness and build my own as well as figure out how to mount the extra 2 rack toms. Used to be one could buy the rack/harness and electronics/pads apart from each other but I don't think that can be done anymore.

[mrcashback]

I'm actually combining an old 8pce pearl export kit that I'm in the process of converting to mesh heads and triggers, with a cheapo electric kit and a ddrum ddti/alesis i/o... Skinning it all in a nice new wrap so it looks the part... The original electric pads I'm retaining for bongos/congas/roto toms type sounds, and the cheap cymbal pads will become my claves/cowbells etc percussion...
Thats all to be fed into BfD3

The big downer with the gen 16dsp is it only outputs one channel, (well, one stereo channel), so once its recorded from that output, theres no way to increase the high hat in the mix later for example independantly of the other cymbals, without resorting to some creative options.

So, if the direct mics/zildjian pickups signals were recorded raw to the daw, before being outputed to the DSP, and then returned from the dsp on another single channel for playback after in the mix, I retain the most mixing options later, and just use the dsp as an outboard pluggin/effects processor like i do with the eleven rack.

My only concern is that I break something by hooking it up this way with regard to power supplies on the line as the dsp is obviously sending power out to the mics, and Im not sure how that will be handled by the interface, or the dsp if I connect the dsp's 'ins' from my 003's 'outs', or, for that matter how the pickups will go on 48v phantom power from my 003's mic inputs.
I could obviously go buy 4x more dsps, run one cymbal per dsp, and each dsp then into its own track, but, for obvious reasons, that just seems silly!
Documentarion is rather thin in this regard given its not how it was built to be connected. Has anyone out there fried thier equipment, or been successfull connecting things in this manner before i start experimenting?

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by mrcashback

I'm actually combining an old 8pce pearl export kit that I'm in the process of converting to mesh heads and triggers, with a cheapo electric kit and a ddrum ddti/alesis i/o... Skinning it all in a nice new wrap so it looks the part... The original electric pads I'm retaining for bongos/congas/roto toms type sounds, and the cheap cymbal pads will become my claves/cowbells etc percussion...
Thats all to be fed into BfD3

The big downer with the gen 16dsp is it only outputs one channel, (well, one stereo channel), so once its recorded from that output, theres no way to increase the high hat in the mix later for example independantly of the other cymbals, without resorting to some creative options.

So, if the direct mics/zildjian pickups signals were recorded raw to the daw, before being outputed to the DSP, and then returned from the dsp on another single channel for playback after in the mix, I retain the most mixing options later, and just use the dsp as an outboard pluggin/effects processor like i do with the eleven rack.

My only concern is that I break something by hooking it up this way with regard to power supplies on the line as the dsp is obviously sending power out to the mics, and Im not sure how that will be handled by the interface, or the dsp if I connect the dsp's 'ins' from my 003's 'outs', or, for that matter how the pickups will go on 48v phantom power from my 003's mic inputs.
I could obviously go buy 4x more dsps, run one cymbal per dsp, and each dsp then into its own track, but, for obvious reasons, that just seems silly!
Documentarion is rather thin in this regard given its not how it was built to be connected. Has anyone out there fried thier equipment, or been successfull connecting things in this manner before i start experimenting?

I'm so old that the first few sessions I did I had one mic hanging above my head...

But, were I running the show at Zildjian, I would put together a 6-channel DSP box with direct outs.

Just my opinion, but I think Zildjian dropped the ball by not offering something like this...

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by mrcashback

I'm actually combining an old 8pce pearl export kit that I'm in the process of converting to mesh heads and triggers, with a cheapo electric kit and a ddrum ddti/alesis i/o... Skinning it all in a nice new wrap so it looks the part... The original electric pads I'm retaining for bongos/congas/roto toms type sounds, and the cheap cymbal pads will become my claves/cowbells etc percussion...
Thats all to be fed into BfD3

The big downer with the gen 16dsp is it only outputs one channel, (well, one stereo channel), so once its recorded from that output, theres no way to increase the high hat in the mix later for example independantly of the other cymbals, without resorting to some creative options.

So, if the direct mics/zildjian pickups signals were recorded raw to the daw, before being outputed to the DSP, and then returned from the dsp on another single channel for playback after in the mix, I retain the most mixing options later, and just use the dsp as an outboard pluggin/effects processor like i do with the eleven rack.

My only concern is that I break something by hooking it up this way with regard to power supplies on the line as the dsp is obviously sending power out to the mics, and Im not sure how that will be handled by the interface, or the dsp if I connect the dsp's 'ins' from my 003's 'outs', or, for that matter how the pickups will go on 48v phantom power from my 003's mic inputs.
I could obviously go buy 4x more dsps, run one cymbal per dsp, and each dsp then into its own track, but, for obvious reasons, that just seems silly!
Documentarion is rather thin in this regard given its not how it was built to be connected. Has anyone out there fried thier equipment, or been successfull connecting things in this manner before i start experimenting?

I wouldn't try what you're proposing unless you don't mind taking an expensive chance and frying things. Not to mention doing what you're doing would void the warranty. There's more going on with that dsp box than you think. You're just going to have to work out the mix as you play, that's all.