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  #11  
Old 03-18-2021, 04:39 PM
Michael Carnes's Avatar
Michael Carnes Michael Carnes is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

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Originally Posted by LDS View Post
I would have thought that unless Atmos supports it, it would just be a bit of a weird mix of channel-based and object-based audio channels. Both seem like they are treated differently by Dolby Atmos.
They are different. In Atmos, you'd have to tie the top 4 to objects. But that doesn't make it any less-desirable. I do know that the Exponential Audio 'verbs I wrote will actually support up to 6 top channels. When things are panned through that reverb you'll actually get a more natural propagation of the signal. The dry part of the object would of course be panned as an object, but the send panner would then be able to put the signal into the full reverb.

There is a trick you can use with those reverbs to get a 7.1.6 reverb, but the upper propagation isn't as natural as it would be with a true 7.1.6 (or 7.1.4) stem width.

(oops) Much of my reply from this point got swallowed. I'll have to paraphrase myself....

Let's assume you had a 7.1.4 or 7.1.6 stem width, a bus of the same width feeding it, and an aux channel with a 7.1.6 reverb. As long as your send is following the panner, any object will also pan the dry signal into that wider bus. This will give you a more natural propagation in the space.

I actually would rather set up a 7.1.6 reverb with all of the height reverb in objects (you can peel off the top stereo pair into a sub-path which feeds an object. Be aware that I'm only talking about the bed reverb--not anything else in the bed). I put the top corner reverbs into objects that are permanently panned to the top corners. I put the bed top reverb into a pair of objects panned halfway back along the top and I duck them by 3-6 dB. This means that a venue with at least 6 top channels will get a very spacious decorrelated reverb that works all the way around the room. If the venue has only 4 height channels, those "Top-Side" channels will be treated as if they're back in the bed, correlated front-to-back. But because they're lower in level, they won't squash the spaciousness generated by the top corners. And if the room only has 2 height channels, everything gets shoved into that top pair (not much you can do about that).

Since objects don't have the delay compensation that the bed does, you have to make your best guess about how much to delay them. But since the tail comes on pretty softly, you can get away with an imperfect guess.

Last edited by Michael Carnes; 03-18-2021 at 04:52 PM.
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2021, 10:56 AM
Tweakhead Tweakhead is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

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Originally Posted by Tweakhead View Post
Please tell me that this will be included in the er, first update of 2021 . . . hint, hint

and . . . . NO.
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  #13  
Old 04-28-2022, 04:30 PM
flavor32 flavor32 is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

+1 pleaaaaaaaase. Those of us mixing into object beds would love wider bus widths. I pan into busses and want at least a 7.0.4 bus (9.1.6 would rock)...not a bed, but a buss. the current max 7.1.2 buss will not let us pan into a 7.1.4 reverb this way straight away from a 7.0.2 panner, etc., nor into a 7.1.4 or 9.1.6 object bed.
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2022, 08:41 AM
audiogamble audiogamble is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

Count me in at another +1 on this. I'm doing this in logic currently, and all it takes is for the software to allow that channel width. Easy enough for the user to take care of the extra height channels with object outputs. 9.1.6 would be immaculate.
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2022, 01:01 PM
Rodrigue Amyot Rodrigue Amyot is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

+1 for me too!!!.
The problem is that the binaural seem to be made from the 7.1.2 event if you use objet with DAPS. so all the elevation positioning is sum in stereo !!!!
Doing ORTF3D recording we ad to go back to 3rd order to keep the elevation in the mic recording. But it would be nice to be in a Atmos workflow to make multiple delivery format (binaural, stereo, 5.1, atmos. etc).
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2022, 05:32 AM
musicube musicube is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

Thank you @Michael Carnes with your #11 comment. It made me think how to find a simple solution to use my 7.1.4 hardware in Pro Tools.
I found a way without restrictions and complicated workarounds. Here is how I feed all 7.1.4.channels with individual signals and without larger workarounds in Pro Tools:

Dry Signals become Objects, that way I can address them to all speakers individually. (That's no news, but just to name it properly)

Reverb Signals are routed to a 7.1.2 bus with a LiquidSonic reverb plugin (I'm using the Cinematic Rooms Professional). The plugin provides an extra output from the 7.1.6. reverb signal. (See attachment)
So I simply grab the (plugin) output of the LS plugin and route it to two Aux Tracks that I handle as Objects. (Input>plugin LS)
Now I can pan them discreet to front and rear upper speaker of my 7.1.4. (L/Rtf of 7.1.4 and L/Rtr of 7.1.4). Simple but effective, thanks to LiquidSonic.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Cinematic Rooms Aux 7.x : 7.x.2 Output Busses.pdf (155.3 KB, 0 views)
File Type: pdf Aux Channel input configuration.pdf (133.0 KB, 0 views)
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2022, 06:21 AM
Michael Carnes's Avatar
Michael Carnes Michael Carnes is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

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Originally Posted by musicube View Post
Thank you @Michael Carnes with your #11 comment. It made me think how to find a simple solution to use my 7.1.4 hardware in Pro Tools.
I found a way without restrictions and complicated workarounds. Here is how I feed all 7.1.4.channels with individual signals and without larger workarounds in Pro Tools:

Dry Signals become Objects, that way I can address them to all speakers individually. (That's no news, but just to name it properly)

Reverb Signals are routed to a 7.1.2 bus with a LiquidSonic reverb plugin (I'm using the Cinematic Rooms Professional). The plugin provides an extra output from the 7.1.6. reverb signal. (See attachment)
So I simply grab the (plugin) output of the LS plugin and route it to two Aux Tracks that I handle as Objects. (Input>plugin LS)
Now I can pan them discreet to front and rear upper speaker of my 7.1.4. (L/Rtf of 7.1.4 and L/Rtr of 7.1.4). Simple but effective, thanks to LiquidSonic.
Yes, I've worked up a similar solution. I just "poach" the non-bed reverb signals into objects and leave the 7.1 part in the bed. It takes a while to get sub-busses set up but it works. The problem is that the Atmos panner in Pro Tools only knows how to pan a reverb send "up". It doesn't know how to pan a send to "top front right" because of the restricted bus size. This doesn't give as pure an acoustic result as a true pan of the dry signal to the proper location. My old Exponential reverbs will support a full 7.1.6 mix, but you have to do a little standing on your head to make it happen (it's in the user guide). Sounds much nicer than 7.1.2 or 7.1.4, but is still restricted by that compromised vertical pan. I'm not going to name a competing DAW here, but there is another option that supports a true 7.1.6 bus and that does work better insofar as reverb.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2022, 11:58 AM
Dizaineris Dizaineris is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

Atmos Beds are 7.1.2.
According to Ceri @Dolby, they will always be up to 7.1.2.


He explained why several times, so I'll try to paraphrase.

If you are mixing for a film/theater, do you want the audience in the front to hear a different mix(height bed) than the people in the back of theater?

Or should everyone hear the same bed?
No matter if it's played back in a 5.1.2, 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc.
The bed remains the same.

The objects would be used for movement/placement in the heights.

If you want a 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc. bus for your speaker layouts, great,
but that is not an atmos bed.
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2022, 12:14 PM
Michael Carnes's Avatar
Michael Carnes Michael Carnes is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

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Originally Posted by Dizaineris View Post
Atmos Beds are 7.1.2.
According to Ceri @Dolby, they will always be up to 7.1.2.


He explained why several times, so I'll try to paraphrase.

If you are mixing for a film/theater, do you want the audience in the front to hear a different mix(height bed) than the people in the back of theater?

Or should everyone hear the same bed?
No matter if it's played back in a 5.1.2, 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc.
The bed remains the same.

The objects would be used for movement/placement in the heights.

If you want a 7.1.4, 9.1.6, etc. bus for your speaker layouts, great,
but that is not an atmos bed.
I more than understand the bed. And I understand and largely agree with Ceri's arguments regarding the bed. With the exception of reverb, I don't put anything at all there. The bed basically provides a comfortable place for people coming over from channel-based audio. The sooner you get stuff into objects, the better.

Please don't confuse my argument for wider busses as an argument for a wider bed. My interest is a wider buss is entirely related to panning a signal through a virtual space. If the dry signal is placed in the front overhead area, then I want reflections and early signal propagation beginning from that same area. My reverbs were designed to do just that and they sound much more natural when the DAW can support it with a wider send buss.

If you're willing to take the time, you can take an appropriate 7.1.4/7.1.6 reverb and put it all (or just the height portions) into objects that are permanently placed in the top corners. Because these can be shared, the total cost to your object budget is only 4 (you can have better fold-down results if you use 6).
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2022, 12:42 PM
Dizaineris Dizaineris is offline
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Default Re: Feature request : 7.1.4 bus

Certainly wasn't directed at you Michael or anyone in particular.

But you would have to admit there is a lot of confusion regarding 7.1.2 beds out there.

BTW, I do have and use Symphony 3D and Stratus 3D. Which are fantastic.
As well as all the Liquid Sonics verbs.
Sadly, I only have a 7.1.4 room.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carnes View Post
I more than understand the bed. And I understand and largely agree with Ceri's arguments regarding the bed. With the exception of reverb, I don't put anything at all there. The bed basically provides a comfortable place for people coming over from channel-based audio. The sooner you get stuff into objects, the better.

Please don't confuse my argument for wider busses as an argument for a wider bed. My interest is a wider buss is entirely related to panning a signal through a virtual space. If the dry signal is placed in the front overhead area, then I want reflections and early signal propagation beginning from that same area. My reverbs were designed to do just that and they sound much more natural when the DAW can support it with a wider send buss.

If you're willing to take the time, you can take an appropriate 7.1.4/7.1.6 reverb and put it all (or just the height portions) into objects that are permanently placed in the top corners. Because these can be shared, the total cost to your object budget is only 4 (you can have better fold-down results if you use 6).
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