Venue SC48 and Pro Tools LE

[sonicboost]

I'd like to weigh in on this one. We don't really use the virtual soundcheck primarily as a training tool. It is used primarily to tweak and prepare the show AND help the volunteer prepare for an upcoming performance. The people that I put in front of virtual soundcheck are primarily guys that have already 'earned' the position of FOH engineer. I do use the virtual soundcheck to 'introduce' new volunteers to the VENUE, but the real training goes on when they are scheduled as the A2 guy (or girl) at FOH. Thats when they really learn to INTERACT with the performers, which in my estimation is THE most important part of the job. What I really want to see is how do they react to the worship pastor, or a possibly demanding performer. If they react defensively, or bug out from the stress, that tells me a lot more than seeing how well they can tweak stuff in with virtual soundcheck. So, to sum it up, I don't think I need a full track count with virtual soundcheck to use it effectively as a training tool. May I suggest you use stems for everything except what group you want to focus on that week with training. For example, stem the band, leave all the vox as individual channels and work vox that week. Or, vice versa, stem the vox, leave the band as individual channels and train on tweaking the band that week. So on and so forth.

If you are having to make it work for the budget, you have to make a compromise. And sound quality is not where you want to compromise.

You can find a way to train effectively. How did we train before 'virtual soundcheck' anyway? The most important part of a person's training is impressing on them how to keep the performers happy. If those guys are happy, a bad mix can seem a whole lot better. If the guys on stage are not happy, then it doesn't matter how well that FOH mixer tweaked the virtual show. Time spent with a good FOH engineer in the heat of battle is FAR more valuable than dorkin around with the virtual soundcheck. The virtual soundcheck is a GREAT tool in your toolbox. Don't let it take the place of where the real training goes on.

[Justin Bartlett]

Roland, let me first thank you for your suggestions.

I think maybe I haven't been as clear as I'd hoped. I'm not looking to use this to "start" training volunteers. I've been training volunteers to mix services for something over five years at this church, for everything from small events like weddings and funerals to our student ministry events to Sunday morning services, and it's been successful. I know how to

What I'm hoping for here is a tool that could significantly enhance the training process, both for newly-recruited volunteers and for those with several years of experience.

The bottom line is this - for our sanctuary upgrade this summer, we'll be making a decision as to whether to spend the extra money for a digital mixer.

There will be two or three analog desks (with appropriate outboard) in the discussion regardless. As things currently stand there will likely be three digital desks in the discussion - the M7CL, the iLive T, and the SC48. If the Pro Tools LE interface can be increased to 24 or more channels (ideally 32), there will be *one* digital mixer in the discussion - the SC48 - and it will be an easier sell for me to get the extra money in the budget to go digital.

So while I appreciate everyone's suggestions - I really do, and I always learn something from these discussions - I'm mostly here hoping to hear one way or another from Sheldon or someone at Digidesign as to whether an upgrade is a realistic possiblity in a useful timeframe.

[Roland Clarke]

I do understand what you are saying, however, my point to you is that as good as the Yamaha M7cl is (and I have used it) it's not in the same league as the Digidesign. I can't comment on the I-live, but I suspect it will be the console people will spec when they can't afford the Yamaha or the Digidesign etc. That you can't afford the other models of the Digidesign I can understand. I would point out that Digidesign have put a lot of effort into the Church sound market, it's no great secret that it's extremely lucrative for sound equipment manufacturers. The new console is very aggressively priced, and like the whole Venue range they are outstanding value for money, particularly when you compare them to their competitors.

I, for example, would love to be driving an Aston Martin, DB9, I don't want to pay more than a family saloon for it, and it would be great if the fuel economy would be better than 35mpg. It would be wonderful, but it's not going to happen. If you genuinely need it for your ministry, I'm sure the congregation will stretch the budget a bit more.

Regards


Roland

[Chris Johnson]

Justin,

i think you are wise to be looking at multiple digital console options and the m7 should definately be on your list in this pricerange. i think this whole conversation has become a bit more narrowly focused than the topic really is. Your question about PTLE is very legitimate. there are of course many more differences between a SC48 and an M7 than are immediately obvious. the M7 has more potential monitor busses (and will be proper 24 buss in the summer) as well as more interfacing options with 3rd party equipment and has digital snake capabilities also.

Im sure you'll weigh up the options and settle on a good solution.

[Justin Bartlett]

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson

Justin,

i think you are wise to be looking at multiple digital console options and the m7 should definately be on your list in this pricerange. i think this whole conversation has become a bit more narrowly focused than the topic really is. Your question about PTLE is very legitimate. there are of course many more differences between a SC48 and an M7 than are immediately obvious. the M7 has more potential monitor busses (and will be proper 24 buss in the summer) as well as more interfacing options with 3rd party equipment and has digital snake capabilities also.

Im sure you'll weigh up the options and settle on a good solution.

Chris-

Thanks for the input. You are right, of course, that there are many other factors to consider in choosing a mixer. But my intended purpose for this thread wasn't so much to seek out help in choosing a mixer, although input on that side of things is appreciated. I've already spent quite a bit of time considering many, if not most, of the other factors involved as they apply to our situation, and I'll have time to consider all of those things again as we go through the process.

But the reason I posted this thread was primarily to try to find out if there's an upgrade to the PTLE interface in the pipeline anytime soon. I'm sure Sheldon and company are very busy right now with the release of this console, but I'm hoping someone from Digidesign will chime in sometime soon.

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi Justin,

These are all good points you bring up. I'm not really able to talk about what future features will be released, so I can't make a definitive statement that the FireWire capability will ever be improved. I can say that we do our best to be as responsive as possible, and always take customer requests (and the volume of these requests) into account when prioritizing features.

Sheldon

[Justin Bartlett]

Originally Posted by Sheldon Radford

Hi Justin,

These are all good points you bring up. I'm not really able to talk about what future features will be released, so I can't make a definitive statement that the FireWire capability will ever be improved. I can say that we do our best to be as responsive as possible, and always take customer requests (and the volume of these requests) into account when prioritizing features.

Sheldon

Sheldon-

Thanks for the response; I really appreciate the work you guys do. I did want to follow up a little though...

On another thread someone asked you about a "page bookmark" feature and you replied that it was "on your list." Totally cool, and a response that makes total sense. It was also a reply that seemed in line with most of the other replies I've seen from you here and over at Pro Sound Web - open, honest, informative, candid. I just find it really odd that your reply on this thread seems really careful to avoid saying much at all; it just seems out of character. And it seems strange that you can discuss that future upgrade but not the PTLE possibilities.

Anyway I'm sure there's a good reason, and I'll stop bugging you about it now - it just seemed a little strange. I'll just keep my eyes open, I guess; sorry for any hassle.

Justin

[Sheldon Radford]

Hi Justin,

Sorry for sending the wrong message. It wasn't my intent to be clandestine or corporate, as the situation's not any different than other feature requests.

Increasing the FireWire track count has been "on the list" for some time. Long enough, in fact, that people could interpret this as "it must be coming soon" or "they'll never do it". The truth is pretty simple: it is indeed "on the list" - but let's be clear that this is a huge and evolving list, and while we'd love to address every item, it's simply not possible; so there's no guarantee that every feature on the list will make its way to the platform.

Prioritizing features and balancing our engineering resources to give customers the best feature set is the toughest challenge we face with each release. It means we have to make trade offs, like delaying really cool, unquestionably useful features (such as bookmarks, or expanding the FireWire track count), in order to focus the team on the larger picture of developing a product like SC48 to further grow our roots in the live sound market.

Of course customer feedback drives all of this, so keep up the comments and suggestions!

Sheldon

[Justin Bartlett]

Sheldon-

Thanks much for the clarification minus the corporatese

We just need to get enough people requesting it that you guys make an announcement before we make our purchase decision this summer

Thanks for the good work; hope to be a Venue customer soon.

Justin

[Paul Peters]

Hello Jason,

I was so excited about the SC-48, because it dropped our church into contention for a digi console. I have looked into the issues facing an 18 channel recording and have already thought of creative ways to get around that. Though LE only records 18 tracks at once, it will play back 32. You could always route things in the analog world back to the console for training purposes. If all you needed were 8 more tracks, you could add the 16 channel output expansion card as well as the AVIOM A-Net expansion card to take care of you monitors, and ad 16 extra outputs for perhaps an LE rig that is piggybacked on to the Venue. I already have an existing LE 002 rack system and thought about using 8 more channels of recording and running 8 more pre fader/EQ outputs to that system and making it a slave to the SC-48. I would then run the outputs of the 002 back into the mixer and have 26 tracks of playback. Later you could import the remaining 8 tracks into the Venue session for mixdown. The total cost so far in my pricing puts the SC-48 with A-Net and 16 channel output option at $24,700, and that isnt even using any connections I have.

Thats what Im thinking about doing. Hope this may help.

PEACE
Paul