Reverb, Delays, & Depth - Questions

[Bezo]

-Why is reverb used to push something back in a mix? My understanding is that the size of a the room determines the amount of natural reverb. How does reverb relate to distance/depth?

-Why are more people using delays instead of reverb? Is it because the time it takes sound to travel is more related to distance/depth?

-When would you use reverb vs. delay?

-I've been using delays to thicken sounds. If I were to use delays to push sounds back in the mix, would I allow only the delayed signal to be audible, or both? It seems that the delay is meant to give the illusion that the instrument is further away, thus creating depth. In that case, it seems that original signal is not needed.

[O.G. Killa]

OK, let me see if I can briefly answer your questions...

1) You push something back in a mix when you don't want it to be right up in your face. This is where the "Art" of mixing comes in and the "Science" of sound starts to fade away...Why would you push something to the back of the mix?? Why Not!?! It might be your artist vision to have strings playing in the distance while the vocal is up front.

This brings up a good point, if everything were in the same space, you'd have a very confusing piece of music. The listener wouldn't be able to point out what is the melody or make out what a singer is saying. Certain things in a song need to have the focus, other things aren't really the focus of the song, but help create the atmosphere or mood of the song.

Reverb is a way to artificially simulate distance/depth.

2) more people use delays just due to taste. Delays also don't get in the way as much. A reverb is a very "thick" sound, delays don't crowd the mix as much. If you have a lot of stuff going on in the song, a reverb would more likely get masked by everything else going on and the mix would just start to sound murky. A delay stands out a little more and doesn't have the low freq build up that a reverb has.

3) see #2...but really it just depends on what you like the sound of better.

4)One thing I think you're not understanding is that a reverb is a delay and vice versa. A reverb is just an enormous amount of delays all happening in an extremely close time frame. There are other variables that make reverb algorithms differ from delays but as a basic concept, a reverb is a delay with a very quick delay time and a very high feedback rate with a decay or fade out and an eq. Some people may want to get more technical and say that this isn't really the case and I agree...but to start off with, and for usage purposes this is a good way to think of reverbs.

Now would you only use the delayed signal?? that depends again on the sound you want. The more of the wet signal the further away the sound appears to be...how far away do you want a particular sound be be? Usually you keep both the original and the wet signal and blend them together to taste... one main reason is you start to lose articulation as you get wetter and wetter...so you might not be able to understand a vocal or really hear quick passing notes on an instrument.

The only time I've ever found myself using a completely 100% wet reverb/delay signal with no original was doing post on a movie. the sound was coming from far away out of sight from the actors on screen and the sound was travelling down hallways to get to the actors in the shot. The purpose was that you were supposed to hear something off in the distance but not be able to make out what it was and not really be able to tell where exactly it was coming from. So it was 100% wet. But in music I can't remember a time when I used anything with a reverb or delay 100% wet. But again that doesn't mean I never will...it's an artistic choice moreso than a scientific one.

[JFreak]

Why are more people using delays instead of reverb?

because the 80's are coming back :/

[Evil Jack]

because the 80's are coming back :/

We all better start saving for a Fairlight CMI then!

[RadioMoo]

If I were to use delays to push sounds back in the mix, would I allow only the delayed signal to be audible, or both?

If you want certain sounds or groups of instuments to have an indistinct, distant sound - a "wash" - you could use just the "wet"signal of a reverb: the end of The Monkees' "Pleasant Valley Sunday," the beginning of Robin Trower's "Bridge of Sighs" (some more examples...somebody!).

because the 80's are coming back

Love that gated reverb!

[Bezo]

You push something back in a mix when you don't want it to be right up in your face.

I should've worded this differently. I understand tracks are pushed back to create depth in a mix. I didn't understand how reverb accomplished this. Your explaination in #4 explained why.

more people use delays just due to taste. Delays also don't get in the way as much. A reverb is a very "thick" sound, delays don't crowd the mix as much. If you have a lot of stuff going on in the song, a reverb would more likely get masked by everything else going on and the mix would just start to sound murky. A delay stands out a little more and doesn't have the low freq build up that a reverb has.

Got it. And #4 helps to clear this up as well.

One thing I think you're not understanding is that a reverb is a delay and vice versa. A reverb is just an enormous amount of delays all happening in an extremely close time frame. There are other variables that make reverb algorithms differ from delays but as a basic concept, a reverb is a delay with a very quick delay time and a very high feedback rate with a decay or fade out and an eq. Some people may want to get more technical and say that this isn't really the case and I agree...but to start off with, and for usage purposes this is a good way to think of reverbs.

This is what I didn't know. This explains a lot. I understood how reverberation is created, but didn't make the connection to depth. My thinking was that more reverb would just make a track sound like it was recorded in a bigger room.

Now would you only use the delayed signal?? that depends again on the sound you want. The more of the wet signal the further away the sound appears to be...how far away do you want a particular sound be be? Usually you keep both the original and the wet signal and blend them together to taste... one main reason is you start to lose articulation as you get wetter and wetter...so you might not be able to understand a vocal or really hear quick passing notes on an instrument.

Thanks. These explainations helped a lot.

[Bezo]

If you want certain sounds or groups of instuments to have an indistinct, distant sound - a "wash" - you could use just the "wet"signal of a reverb: the end of The Monkees' "Pleasant Valley Sunday," the beginning of Robin Trower's "Bridge of Sighs" (some more examples...somebody!).

Good to know. Thanks!

[O.G. Killa]

I understood how reverberation is created, but didn't make the connection to depth. My thinking was that more reverb would just make a track sound like it was recorded in a bigger room.

You are correct in thinking that adding reverb would make it sound like the track was recorded in a bigger room. But what it also does as you move the reverb level up and the original level down is place you further away from the original sound in the room.

Imagine a concert hall or a stadium. If an instrument is playing on the stage and you are 5 feet away you can hear the sound of the stadium but you are close enough to the instrument that you can hear the definition of the instrument...now imagine you move the nosebleed seats on the other side of the stadium. Now you're at least 300 yards away from the performer (and no PA system). What will you hear? you'll hear more of the stadium and not so much of the player. You won't hear any fine detail because they millions of reflections happening throughout the stadium blur the sound of the instrument.

So...if you just add reverb yes it will make it sound like it was in a bigger room...but if you start to pull the original signal down and the reverb level up you start to move the position of the listener in the artificial space in relation to the instrument. Which I think is what you refer to as "giving more depth".

To me depth is a different thing...but that's probably a topic for it's own thread.

[Bezo]

You are correct in thinking that adding reverb would make it sound like the track was recorded in a bigger room. But what it also does as you move the reverb level up and the original level down is place you further away from the original sound in the room.

Imagine a concert hall or a stadium. If an instrument is playing on the stage and you are 5 feet away you can hear the sound of the stadium but you are close enough to the instrument that you can hear the definition of the instrument...now imagine you move the nosebleed seats on the other side of the stadium. Now you're at least 300 yards away from the performer (and no PA system). What will you hear? you'll hear more of the stadium and not so much of the player. You won't hear any fine detail because they millions of reflections happening throughout the stadium blur the sound of the instrument.

So...if you just add reverb yes it will make it sound like it was in a bigger room...but if you start to pull the original signal down and the reverb level up you start to move the position of the listener in the artificial space in relation to the instrument. Which I think is what you refer to as "giving more depth".

Excellent explaination! This makes it crystal clear. Thank you!

To me depth is a different thing...but that's probably a topic for it's own thread.

I'd be interested in your definition of depth and how you go about creating it. How is it different than what you explained above?

Making instrumental groove music, I can use all the mixing help I can get. Very few of my songs will have vocals or lead instruments. Tying things together and filling out the sound will be key.

[Bezo]

Second but related issue...

I've never heard a professional mix before it was mastered. I know a lot of that professional polish is taken care of during mastering. Between this thread and some other reading, my mix sounds 100% better. However, since I'm only mixing, AND I'm in a project studio, I'm not sure when I should be satisfied with the mix.


How close should I try to get to the commecial releases I'm referencing?

Should I just stop when I can't make it any better?