Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools 11

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #2061  
Old 12-05-2014, 09:57 AM
propower propower is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 2,202
Default Re: New Licensing

Lets say I group the Audio user world into -

1) Super cash limited - students - novice - beginning hobbyist - some musicians

2) People with disposable income - Musicians with other jobs - serious hobbyists - semi-pro (folks who earn some money with studio equipment or music in general) - small private and project studios

3) People/Companies that make a living on studio work - Full time recording studios - Post - Movies etc...

Now I ask -
a) which group represents the largest cash spent/yr on studio equipment
b) Which group represents the largest untapped market for AVID

I don;t know the answers but this rampant dismissal of group #2 seems almost pathological here . Who do we think buys all these mid to high tier preamps/Compressors/Microphones/Mogami/ProTools/Plugins etc...
Think about TEAC 3340s, ADATs, FostexR8, Mackie, and now - Kush, Burl, Lynx, Apogee, UAD, Aurora Audio, Metric Halo, Gefell, Neumann etc etc etc.... You think only group 3 is buying this stuff?????

Dismissing Group 2 and thinking they are really group 1 is a trend I am seeing here that I completely disagree with...

And lets look at the purchasing algorithms for the three groups
1) Can I afford it - can I get it for free - Can I live without it
2) Is it cool - would I like to have it - Does it do something for me that I don't have yet
3) Can I make more money with it than with what I have - Do I have to get it

Which group would you like to sell to?? Where is the largest untapped $$$
__________________
2017 27" iMac 3.8GHz i5, 1TB SSD
Logic ProX, Studio One V4, PT current version, Apogee Ensemble TB
Musician: http://www.ivanlee.net/
Design Engineer: http://www.propowerinc.com/resume.html
  #2062  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:09 AM
Chingy Chingy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 418
Default Re: New Licensing

Let's not fool ourselves - EVERY DAW has bugs. Cubase, Logic, and most definitely Pro Tools (PT 11 crashes on me with frequency for some reason, but I still love it). I posted about Cubase 8 to illustrate the difference between Steinberg and AVID. The cost of upgrade, the speed of their update cycle, their ability to bring a lot of substantial functionality with each release, etc. Is Cubase 8 perfect? Hell no - far from it. I have plenty of feature requests and complaints. Is it a good step in the right direction and shows Steinberg's commitment? Hell yes! I truly hope we see the same from AVID sooner rather than later, because it may be too late if they wait too long.
  #2063  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:10 AM
mesaone mesaone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 5,257
Default Re: New Licensing

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
Which group would you like to sell to?? Where is the largest untapped $$$
I ain't take no fancy business classes, but my answer would be "all three". If I have a product, I want to sell it to everyone and their dog.

I think this is the driving force behind the two versions (LE/Vanilla and HD), the MBOX and 00X series, partnership with M-Audio, current co-mingling of Pro Tools Express with interfaces by Akai and other manufacturers.
__________________
Pro Tools HD 12.4, Pro Tools "Vanilla" 12.4, Artist Transport, 2x Artist Mix
Studio Blue: RME UCX, Win7 Pro, i7 960, 16GB || Studio Green: RME Babyface, Win10, i7 7700HQ, 16GB
  #2064  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:18 AM
Alfalfa Alfalfa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 81
Default Re: New Licensing

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
Lets say I group the Audio user world into -

1) Super cash limited - students - novice - beginning hobbyist - some musicians

2) People with disposable income - Musicians with other jobs - serious hobbyists - semi-pro (folks who earn some money with studio equipment or music in general) - small private and project studios

3) People/Companies that make a living on studio work - Full time recording studios - Post - Movies etc...

Now I ask -
a) which group represents the largest cash spent/yr on studio equipment
b) Which group represents the largest untapped market for AVID

I don;t know the answers but this rampant dismissal of group #2 seems almost pathological here . Who do we think buys all these mid to high tier preamps/Compressors/Microphones/Mogami/ProTools/Plugins etc...
Think about TEAC 3340s, ADATs, FostexR8, Mackie, and now - Kush, Burl, Lynx, Apogee, UAD, Aurora Audio, Metric Halo, Gefell, Neumann etc etc etc.... You think only group 3 is buying this stuff?????

Dismissing Group 2 and thinking they are really group 1 is a trend I am seeing here that I completely disagree with...

And lets look at the purchasing algorithms for the three groups
1) Can I afford it - can I get it for free - Can I live without it
2) Is it cool - would I like to have it - Does it do something for me that I don't have yet
3) Can I make more money with it than with what I have - Do I have to get it

Which group would you like to sell to?? Where is the largest untapped $$$
I think that Avid tried and missed with Group 2, going back ten years at least to the purchase of M-Audio. They are loyal users of other DAWs because they do not need Pro Tools compatibility for what they do. Feature for dollar, they can get what they want and need elsewhere. The only way Avid would be able to capture them would be to offer PT HD at PT vanilla prices, and I'm not sure that would work either.

Among PT users, Group 2 may not be recognized as existing, but I think Avid have already tried and failed to reach them.
  #2065  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:38 AM
WombatStudio.Org's Avatar
WombatStudio.Org WombatStudio.Org is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Gibbsboro, NJ
Posts: 538
Default Re: New Licensing

Best thing they could do is cut the ties from HD software to a hardware purchase.

They did so within the software - why not within the market?

There are better and cheaper alternatives to Avid hardware products.
__________________
WombatStudio.Org • Digital Recording, Mixing and Mastering in Gibbsboro, NJ • USA
"It's not the gear ... it's the ear"
  #2066  
Old 12-05-2014, 11:04 AM
Dnnspv Dnnspv is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 132
Default Re: New Licensing

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
Which group would you like to sell to?? Where is the largest untapped $$$

Steinberg and Apple, for example, do not have the bulk of the group that finalizes most of the movies, tv shows, and radio hits (at least in the U.S). This is where it balances out. Neither company has to have every customer on every level. To try and do so in dramatic fashion shifts focus from the reason why they are relevant.

Lamborghini will not began competing for the Honda market simply because the market is there. This is how I see vanilla with Avid.

Steinberg walks the engineer line very carefully with Cubase. They make it clear that Cubase is for Artists and Producers first, and back that up with a very efficient DAW for VI's, a ton of wet dream MIDI features like VST Expression 2, a plethora of stock VI's, Chord track, arranger track, etc. They understand, however, that the market they are selling to is a hybrid market who can also engineer their products if applicable. So they give them tools for that too, like VCA faders.

Compare that to vanilla. Seriously? Do vanilla users honestly expect Avid to compete with this well established native system dominated by Steinberg, Apple and others? Where will all the time and money come from while also focusing on HD and post?

Think about it. Avid already has HD to handle processing. Why continue to spend a lot of time and money to handle the first native gripe, which is to get vanilla to run as efficient as Cubase or FL Studio on the average home computer for native users? It makes no business sense, regardless of how personal native users take it.

It has to be clear that Digidesign made a tremendous push to tap into the native market. We do not have the native vs. HD revenue numbers. What we do know is that vanilla is still no where close to being a favorite in the pro native DAW world. This is a fact to all of us who work with professional composers, producers and DJ's.

That is why I pointed out the history of these products. Not much as changed after all these years and Digi's very dramatic attempt.
  #2067  
Old 12-05-2014, 11:35 AM
Righty27 Righty27 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,049
Default Re: New Licensing

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
Lets say I group the Audio user world into -

1) Super cash limited - students - novice - beginning hobbyist - some musicians

2) People with disposable income - Musicians with other jobs - serious hobbyists - semi-pro (folks who earn some money with studio equipment or music in general) - small private and project studios

3) People/Companies that make a living on studio work - Full time recording studios - Post - Movies etc...

Now I ask -
a) which group represents the largest cash spent/yr on studio equipment
b) Which group represents the largest untapped market for AVID

I don;t know the answers but this rampant dismissal of group #2 seems almost pathological here . Who do we think buys all these mid to high tier preamps/Compressors/Microphones/Mogami/ProTools/Plugins etc...
Think about TEAC 3340s, ADATs, FostexR8, Mackie, and now - Kush, Burl, Lynx, Apogee, UAD, Aurora Audio, Metric Halo, Gefell, Neumann etc etc etc.... You think only group 3 is buying this stuff?????

Dismissing Group 2 and thinking they are really group 1 is a trend I am seeing here that I completely disagree with...

And lets look at the purchasing algorithms for the three groups
1) Can I afford it - can I get it for free - Can I live without it
2) Is it cool - would I like to have it - Does it do something for me that I don't have yet
3) Can I make more money with it than with what I have - Do I have to get it

Which group would you like to sell to?? Where is the largest untapped $$$
Speaking as a 2, I agree with propower's general analysis if what drives spending in each category. Ironically, it's probably the majority of 3s who stick on stable versions and consequently end up contributing little more on software than 2s, who are more likely to want the latest/shiniest. Forcing consistent revenue from this category, who are also Avid's core market and most likely to just accept the changes, was probably a no brainer.

Unfortunately for Avid (and many of us 2s who so like using Pro Tools), the vanilla market will most probably continue on its current path along with other areas of retail technology i.e. more features for less money year-on-year. The biggest competitors here are Cubase and Logic, both backed by mega-corporations (Yamaha and Apple) who can afford to stay in this game and likely have measurable benefits of doing so.

So, regarding Vanilla, wherever Avid are now (and we don't know the numbers as propower says), things are unlikely to get better - the only other option would be entering the race to the bottom and depreciating your premium offering in the process. However, considering what they've actually done and who it affects (basically current users - I wouldn't expect many to join the vanilla ranks now), I can't see it would be much different to e.g. allow lapsed licences to be reactivated for a reasonable fee and put an end to all this negativity?!
  #2068  
Old 12-05-2014, 11:55 AM
Alfalfa Alfalfa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 81
Default Re: New Licensing

Like it or not, there is also the issue of brand dilution, akin to a Lamborghini mini. If such a thing existed, who would buy it, and what good would it do to the brand name?

Adobe has dealt with it by offering Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements for $100, no upgrade price (well, there is, but it costs less to buy new on Amazon).

Apple dealt with it by effectively only offering an upgrade price of $200 for Logic. Apple is clever. Rather than dealing with verifications, cross grades, upgrades of varying prices and so forth, they just count the Mac as the price of entry. You buy Logic for the upgrade price.

Avid could offer vanilla for $200 ($250 w/ an iLok), throw out the student versions, upgrades, and so forth, charge separately for a service contract, and compete in that market. That covers Group 1, but Group 2 is somewhere between vanilla at $200 and an HD system. Sort of like Apple intentionally failing to have a mid-tier desktop.
  #2069  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:03 PM
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
Bob Olhsson Bob Olhsson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville, TN
Posts: 3,473
Default Re: New Licensing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfalfa View Post
Among PT users, Group 2 may not be recognized as existing, but I think Avid have already tried and failed to reach them.
Exactly. It flopped big time so they bought Euphonix, dropped low-end hardware and set vanilla free from hardware as a student version and accessory to HD. When CPTK came out there was nothing between a $1000 le system and a $10k HD system. That slot got filled by HD native.
__________________
Bob's room 615 562-4346
Interview
Artists are the gatekeepers of truth! - Paul Robeson
  #2070  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:27 PM
Righty27 Righty27 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,049
Default Re: New Licensing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfalfa View Post
Like it or not, there is also the issue of brand dilution, akin to a Lamborghini mini. If such a thing existed, who would buy it, and what good would it do to the brand name?

Adobe has dealt with it by offering Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements for $100, no upgrade price (well, there is, but it costs less to buy new on Amazon).

Apple dealt with it by effectively only offering an upgrade price of $200 for Logic. Apple is clever. Rather than dealing with verifications, cross grades, upgrades of varying prices and so forth, they just count the Mac as the price of entry. You buy Logic for the upgrade price.

Avid could offer vanilla for $200 ($250 w/ an iLok), throw out the student versions, upgrades, and so forth, charge separately for a service contract, and compete in that market. That covers Group 1, but Group 2 is somewhere between vanilla at $200 and an HD system. Sort of like Apple intentionally failing to have a mid-tier desktop.
Sticking to Alfalfa's car analogy, Lamborghini have had their rough times and probably owe their survival mostly thanks to VW/Audi. Other premium brands like BMW and Mercedes have succeeded on their own by harnessing the strength of their brands and moving down market, to the extent that both BMW and Audi have models in the UK top ten for sales nowadays, whilst keeping their high-end models for prestige and sales when the economy favours them.

How many premium car manufacturers have survived without having to be bailed out or backed by a manufacturer with a broader range of products to suit different economic times?

Avid is putting all its eggs in one basket and hopefully this basket will hold true and their users will continue to not be tempted by better/cheaper baskets! Unfortunately, whether for cars, baskets or DAWs, resting on your laurels and avoiding a 'fight' doesn't help drive innovation, value, etc.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Licensing? chip88 Pro Tools 9 1 11-08-2012 09:40 AM
SFX licensing MIKEROPHONICS Post - Surround - Video 2 08-14-2011 04:51 PM
m-powered licensing pixeltarian Pro Tools M-Powered (Win) 1 04-22-2011 08:44 PM
Licensing question pappatoad 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 6 02-28-2010 05:09 PM
Licensing Plugins help? nemisis63 General Discussion 1 10-25-2002 02:58 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:00 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com