Anybody here have MacPro (silver) HDX, Icon and Waves plugs? Let's talk!

[Will Russell]

Hello there!

I'm looking to start a discussion with other recording pros who have a rig and business similar to mine. I own and operate a full-service recording studio, large tracking room, mixing room, a residential studio in fact. I have an upgraded 2009 Mac Pro (upgraded to a 12 core, essentially a 5,1), single HDX card running PT 12.2HD a 24ch D-Command, 16x16 HD I|O and a 16x16 192 I|O. I also amongst my too many plugins have the now dramatically devalued Waves Mercury bundle.

I would like to open a dialogue to talk about general system stability, frustrations with the HDX platform, the possibility and relative merits of purchasing the Waves DLS hardware system, frustration with the aging D-Command.

Anyone else out there with a rig similar to mine?

[Barry Johns]

What is your frustration with the D-Command?

I've looked into Waves DLS, from what I've discerned, the workflow is cumbersome but effective.

[Will Russell]

I love my D-Command! My frustration is that gradually features are being broken in software updates and they will never be fixed by Avid.
Controls for HEAT- encoders display garbage rather than valid values
Send assignments- When you assign sends to either preexisting auxs or use the dialog to create a new destination track, the D-Command does not display the change until you close and reopen the session.

I'm mad at Waves for not supporting AAX-DSP. My understanding is that in order to use Waves plugins with low latency while tracking in this DLS hardware setup you need to establish your monitor mixes through their software mixer rather than Pro Tools? Sound like a PITA and disallows me from using other plugins while tracking? My solution has been to invest in Sonnox and McDSP and SoftTube plugins as replacements.

[WildHoney]

Originally Posted by Will Russell

I love my D-Command! My frustration is that gradually features are being broken in software updates and they will never be fixed by Avid.
Controls for HEAT- encoders display garbage rather than valid values
Send assignments- When you assign sends to either preexisting auxs or use the dialog to create a new destination track, the D-Command does not display the change until you close and reopen the session.

I'm mad at Waves for not supporting AAX-DSP. My understanding is that in order to use Waves plugins with low latency while tracking in this DLS hardware setup you need to establish your monitor mixes through their software mixer rather than Pro Tools? Sound like a PITA and disallows me from using other plugins while tracking? My solution has been to invest in Sonnox and McDSP and SoftTube plugins as replacements.

I've got a d-command, waves mercury, PT11HD, HDX, etc. I've also resorted to alternate manufacturers who code for AAX DSP. I'd say 90% of the plugins I've bought over the last two years are AAX DSP -- Brainworx (great stuff), McDSP, MetricHalo, Softube. There's so much good stuff out there right now, i'm going to invest in the brands that are going to give me the most mileage and those are the ones making AAX DSP.

[propower]

Originally Posted by Will Russell

I love my D-Command! My frustration is that gradually features are being broken in software updates and they will never be fixed by Avid.
Controls for HEAT- encoders display garbage rather than valid values
Send assignments- When you assign sends to either preexisting auxs or use the dialog to create a new destination track, the D-Command does not display the change until you close and reopen the session.

I'm mad at Waves for not supporting AAX-DSP. My understanding is that in order to use Waves plugins with low latency while tracking in this DLS hardware setup you need to establish your monitor mixes through their software mixer rather than Pro Tools? Sound like a PITA and disallows me from using other plugins while tracking? My solution has been to invest in Sonnox and McDSP and SoftTube plugins as replacements.

There are two ways to use a DLS in a tracking setup up with Pro Tools HD systems. 1) I/O mode where the DLS acts more like a Hardware insert. The playback engine is still HDX - not Waves. The latency hit is an extra 0.8ms on top of the HDX latency plus whatever plugin latency there may be. Each instance uses an I/O lane from your HDX though (one HDX card has 64 I/O lanes which is also the maximum instantiations on a DLS (64 mono or 32 stereo). You can still use multiple plugins on the track including standard AAX-DSP. The other mode (SGP mode) is where you use the Waves playback engine instead of HDX. This one is what I think you were referring to above.

But at this time (though I am always hopeful it will change) there is no real control surface support. There is no automatic mapping (or dynamic updating) of the SoundGrid plugins that are wrapped in a StudioRack (the only way the DLS can see them). So in your case no real ICON control (though you can manually map them - not at all what you want to do). In SGP mode there is also no EuCon support so the console can not help in monitor mixes or any SG Studio setup.

Although sound quality, latency, Ethernet connectivity are all great with DiGiGrid, for large scale tracking and control surface support the AVID world (broken as they are) is still very hard to beat. It saddens me that super expensive and not that old ICON surfaces even are not better supported. Regardless, I am a DiGiGrid advocate, was a long time TDM owner and a tech lover so happy to discuss further .

[Rubicon]

I can't speak to the D-Command, but my silver 5.1 twelve core is amazing. More killer avid plugs and more native and HDX horse power than ever. Big mixes with fantastic sound are easy now. There are a few waves plugs that are old and diminish the sound, like the L2. Use the latest waves plugs, (I'm Mercury as well.) and you should be good to go. I had considered the waves hardware but now I'm not so sure. Be sure to up the playback engine when mixing. Due to the much longer delay compensation, you can get so many plugs there is no reason to perform anything downstream. Take off some of the old waves plugs and watch your mixes come alive.

[Table Syrup Records]

In my opinion, the only real 'downfall' (if you see it as that) is the differences in monitor mixing.

In my case, I use StudioRack to SEND the record channels to Aux 'Bus' in eMotion - these are active for routing RECORD enabled track monitoring. At the same time, I have Sends in PT routing audio for PLAYBACK track monitoring. The switch happens automatically. The PLAYBACK monitoring can be 'board mixed' as you normally would, as those are utilizing the PT Sends. However, RECORD monitoring cannot be 'board mixed' as there is no control surface support for eMotion or it's sends at this time.

For me, this is not an issue, as I do not board mix my RECORD cue mixes. I set them to pre fade and they route to headphone distribution systems with personal monitors. So, all the mixing takes place on the talents end. They dial what they want. My PLAYBACK sends I usually set to post fade so they follow my mix, as they are playback, and I can 'level match' them if needed, in the eMotion mixer (so that there isn't a volume difference between playback/record sends).

Follow?

If you are board mixing your cue mixes 100%, then this might be a change in workflow for you, but in my use, it is working great, really the same as what I was doing before, and it really is a 'set and forget' situation for the most part (once the routing is set up in eMotion, you don't need to do that again... it's done)

[audioluche]

Originally Posted by Will Russell

Hello there!

I'm looking to start a discussion with other recording pros who have a rig and business similar to mine. I own and operate a full-service recording studio, large tracking room, mixing room, a residential studio in fact. I have an upgraded 2009 Mac Pro (upgraded to a 12 core, essentially a 5,1), single HDX card running PT 12.2HD a 24ch D-Command, 16x16 HD I|O and a 16x16 192 I|O. I also amongst my too many plugins have the now dramatically devalued Waves Mercury bundle.

I would like to open a dialogue to talk about general system stability, frustrations with the HDX platform, the possibility and relative merits of purchasing the Waves DLS hardware system, frustration with the aging D-Command.

Anyone else out there with a rig similar to mine?

Hi Will,

My system is very similar to yours. HDX (single card), 24 faders D-command, 2009 Mac Pro (not upgraded), one 16 channels HD I/O and two 192 I/O. But i am still on PT11.

I love the system, it is very reliable and i always use only DSP plugins at the tracking stage. As WildHoney stated, more and more good DSP plugins are now available from Plugin alliance, MCDSP, MDW, Softube, Sonnox, Flux, Crane Song, Avid and many others. I have the feeling my DSP collection covers pretty much everything now, and there are some pretty good DSP plugins that i did not purchased yet. But for FX, i mainly use hardware at the recording and mixing stage (Bricasti, PC 80 and 70, H3000).

I do use Waves plugins, mainly Q-Clone, for a workflow question. But only at mix stage. I rarely use others waves plugins, maybe a couple of instances here and there in the mix.

I have some frustrations with some 3rd party manufacturers and Icon implementation. I almost stopped using Slate plugins because they do not work well with ICON. VMR is a nightmare!
But most DSP brands are working well with the D-command.

I do not use enough Waves plugins to consider Waves hardware. I would use more Waves plugins if they were AAX DSP, but the lack of support turned me to other options that i now prefer.

I know Table Syrup Records like the system and Waves hardware fits his need and workflow.

For me, i am used to control every send from the Icon, being cue mixes and FX sends, often doing automation on them, so Studiorack would be a pita here.
I guess it depends on your workflow and how much you use Waves plugins...
And i prefer the on integrated system approach.

[Will Russell]

Originally Posted by propower

There are two ways to use a DLS in a tracking setup up with Pro Tools HD systems. 1) I/O mode where the DLS acts more like a Hardware insert. The playback engine is still HDX - not Waves. The latency hit is an extra 0.8ms on top of the HDX latency plus whatever plugin latency there may be. Each instance uses an I/O lane from your HDX though (one HDX card has 64 I/O lanes which is also the maximum instantiations on a DLS (64 mono or 32 stereo). You can still use multiple plugins on the track including standard AAX-DSP. The other mode (SGP mode) is where you use the Waves playback engine instead of HDX. This one is what I think you were referring to above.

But at this time (though I am always hopeful it will change) there is no real control surface support. There is no automatic mapping (or dynamic updating) of the SoundGrid plugins that are wrapped in a StudioRack (the only way the DLS can see them). So in your case no real ICON control (though you can manually map them - not at all what you want to do). In SGP mode there is also no EuCon support so the console can not help in monitor mixes or any SG Studio setup.

Although sound quality, latency, Ethernet connectivity are all great with DiGiGrid, for large scale tracking and control surface support the AVID world (broken as they are) is still very hard to beat. It saddens me that super expensive and not that old ICON surfaces even are not better supported. Regardless, I am a DiGiGrid advocate, was a long time TDM owner and a tech lover so happy to discuss further .

Thanks for all this info! Your description makes this much clearer for me. The combination of adding another .8 ms of latency, together with no D-Command support kills my idea of maintaining my $9000 investment in Waves plugins by purchasing their hardware. I will continue to use them as native plug-ins only when I don't have an AAX DSP option to replace it. Seriously, thanks for helping me make this decision!

[Will Russell]

Originally Posted by WildHoney

I've got a d-command, waves mercury, PT11HD, HDX, etc. I've also resorted to alternate manufacturers who code for AAX DSP. I'd say 90% of the plugins I've bought over the last two years are AAX DSP -- Brainworx (great stuff), McDSP, MetricHalo, Softube. There's so much good stuff out there right now, i'm going to invest in the brands that are going to give me the most mileage and those are the ones making AAX DSP.

I agree that the AAX DSP plugins out there are pretty great quality. MDW-EQ, Sonnox, MCDSP, MH, SofTube, all great, but very little in the "vintage" department. Like, no good channel strip emulations other than McDSP's Channel G.

What do you use for Reverb? I still try to use Lexicon PCMNative and Altiverb as native plugins on an aux but the Lexicon throws CPU spikes every time I press play (causing 9171 errors unless I ignore errors) and Altiverb seems to be giving me -9105 errors when I open sessions. In addition using native plugins on an aux adds a ton of system latency. I've tried Avid Space which sounds good with found Bricasti IRs, but it's pretty limited in IR selection overall and frankly I'm kind of a Lex-aholic...