Too soon to talk about a new console?

[ili]

So, Avid is dropping TDM architecture and plugin developers will no longer make TDM Plugins, all AAX now.

Pro Tools HD has been replaced with HDX which provides more headroom, Floating point plugin processing, 32bit, etc

Since Venue is based on TDM (same as HD) , will we see an "HDX" kind of Venue system coming soon ?

What do you think?

[Roland Clarke]

I think that is will still be a while off yet. Venue has been incredibly successful for Avid, It's probably the most successful touring console out there and I keep on seeing even the "haters" descibe it as the most rider friendly.

I did ask one of Avid's senior people last year if he thought a new surface would be on the horizon (at the time Digico had just released the SD9, SD10, SD11 with a very "slick" styling), however, at that time I was told that Avid felt there was still mileage in the profile.

Having spent some time looking at other firms offerings, Midas, the newer Digico's, Soundcraft, IMHO they all miss the point and their surfaces do not look like they have been designed by those with a good deal of digital console experience behind them.

Purely from a user logistics POV, I think only Yamaha and Avid have "got it". For many people who are moving to Digital live consoles for the first time and for many the last 4-5years will have been that, they "don't know any better" and can be convinced that whatever console they first see has the best solution and I've met more than a few of those. In my view, where Avid have got it right, is the fact that you have a complete channel in front, on view at any time. The group spill function is a worthwhile addition, other console manufacturers had come up with the same idea and Avid were quick to recognise it's value.

If Avid do move to a new system incoperating AAX, there is potentially one problem in that Waves say they have no plans to support AAX and obviously many Venue users are Waves fans too. I think that 32bit floating point procesing may also be a little bit of a red herring at the moment, perhaps the next system will be one that runs both TDM and AAX, time will tell.

[ili]

Hi Roland,

I get what you say, Venue is not getting old at all. It is rider friendly, and one of the industry "standards" right now.

But the fact is that soon it's going to work with a dead plugin format, and one of the main features that differentiate this console from the competition are Plugins and Pro Tools integration, so plans of a new architecture/venue system are not really far off.

For me, Waves had to say that they don't have plans for AAX as a business strategy, because it would impact current sales if they don't have the product yet, they are still selling TDM and RTAS. It would be a very silly move if they just decide to drop the Pro Tools market, it is probably the most important they have.

Same as Avid, they won't tell you if they have a new console unless its right around the corner, it would impact sales of the current products.

I saw Robert Scovill last month at a "Introducing Venue SC48 remote" event, and he was talking about a bunch of features and tricks that are not currently posible on Venue that "we are working hard to see in the future products" or "it's getting solved..." , so they are not just working on improving Venue as it is, they are developing new stuff.

AVB was introduced with the SC48 , we will probably see more of that. SC48 is a great product for a specific market.

All this and a couple of other things like the Thunderbolt HD Native card, Digico/Midas/Yamaha releasing smaller footprint consoles and the fact that the Venue system will celebrate 8 years soon, makes me think that maybe we will see something new this or the next year.

I would love to see a 32/48 channel "more portable" Venue, direct thunderbolt connection or AVB "virtual soundcard" with true virtual soundcheck (not like Firewire virtual soundcheck), 12 VCA/Groups would kick ass also.

But then again, it's just my impression...

[digidesigner]

If the AAX-DSP based desk would come out today, I would loose 99% of my tools if I would start using that new desk. I would loose Echo Farm, Waves, All TC Electronic, Massey, SoundToys and McDSP multiband's.

Absence of Waves AAX-DSP would probably be the worst hit on new desks in general as in that case VENUE would become the only consoles not being able to run Waves... and well, Waves are the only *plugins* live sound guys have heard of

Since Waves has joined AVnu, they might introduce a similar server-type solution for new generation of VENUE desks as there is available for other desks but it would end up being nothing as elegant as we have at our hands now.

Although I would love to go 96khz, it seems at least for me a Profile will still be running the show for quite some time.

[Roland Clarke]

Originally Posted by ili

Hi Roland,

I get what you say, Venue is not getting old at all. It is rider friendly, and one of the industry "standards" right now.

But the fact is that soon it's going to work with a dead plugin format, and one of the main features that differentiate this console from the competition are Plugins and Pro Tools integration, so plans of a new architecture/venue system are not really far off.

For me, Waves had to say that they don't have plans for AAX as a business strategy, because it would impact current sales if they don't have the product yet, they are still selling TDM and RTAS. It would be a very silly move if they just decide to drop the Pro Tools market, it is probably the most important they have.

Same as Avid, they won't tell you if they have a new console unless its right around the corner, it would impact sales of the current products.

I saw Robert Scovill last month at a "Introducing Venue SC48 remote" event, and he was talking about a bunch of features and tricks that are not currently posible on Venue that "we are working hard to see in the future products" or "it's getting solved..." , so they are not just working on improving Venue as it is, they are developing new stuff.

AVB was introduced with the SC48 , we will probably see more of that. SC48 is a great product for a specific market.

All this and a couple of other things like the Thunderbolt HD Native card, Digico/Midas/Yamaha releasing smaller footprint consoles and the fact that the Venue system will celebrate 8 years soon, makes me think that maybe we will see something new this or the next year.

I would love to see a 32/48 channel "more portable" Venue, direct thunderbolt connection or AVB "virtual soundcard" with true virtual soundcheck (not like Firewire virtual soundcheck), 12 VCA/Groups would kick ass also.

But then again, it's just my impression...

I think all you say above is right, 12 VCA's/Groups, would be a huge benefit.

Perhaps with all the changes happening about AAX, that may become the definitive factor in a new live console. Waiting for the porting of AAX plugin's, might be a deciding factor for a time frame of the eventual "Venue II", if this is the case, I certainly would be surprised to see a new version released this year, I would guess possibly PLASA next year or failing that the beginning of 2014. Although improvements can always be made, I think that the Profile pretty much has it right from a user interface POV and for that reason, I hope that the eventual new surface will be an "enhanced" version rather than taking a different tack, having looked at other manufacturers current offerings, I don't think they do the console interface as well.

Obviously YMMV

[Shiko]

not at all...

i love the venue!!
but its outdated as hell

the console got the best operating system out there and very stable since 2.8.1 but it lacks in all other departments.

the worst thing is that it got only 24 aux bus - very very limiting.

layout - the fact that the faders aren't "virtual" is very limiting as well on layout options

having to use a splitter all the time - all the competition have some sort of gain compensation and can use the same stage box.

a normal ipad/mac/pc - control software(even soundcraft have one...)the vnc thing,how should i put it...hmm not that good

and if ill be honest,it dose not sound that good from the box,i think a new preamp would be a good thing if there will be a new console.

in the hardware department - the faders dose not function well in a humid area,lots of offs on all faders in the israeli summer

and yeah 12 vcas is much more comfortable.

after all that bashing
i rather have a profile over a sd8/vi6/pm5d 99.9% of the time

[Roland Clarke]

Originally Posted by Shiko

not at all...

i love the venue!!
but its outdated as hell

the console got the best operating system out there and very stable since 2.8.1 but it lacks in all other departments.

the worst thing is that it got only 24 aux bus - very very limiting.

10 years ago you would have killed for 24 aux bus! Personally I don't think having only 24 aux's is the limiting factor, more the fact that with 24 (or even 16) loosing stereo groups becomes an issue. 12 stereo groups and 24 cue sends would probably do it.

layout - the fact that the faders aren't "virtual" is very limiting as well on layout options

I'm not totally with you on this one, you can use group/VCA spill and you can move strips around. I would be sad to see more flexibility added and lose straightforward layouts, for me this is where Soundcraft and Digico get it wrong, I want a console with a complete access channel strip (which we already have) and I would loathe to loose this.

having to use a splitter all the time - all the competition have some sort of gain compensation and can use the same stage box.

This really will have to be addressed, however, I'm sure that Avid have this high on priority.

a normal ipad/mac/pc - control software(even soundcraft have one...)the vnc thing,how should i put it...hmm not that good

I can see a lot of users wanting this.

and if ill be honest,it dose not sound that good from the box,i think a new preamp would be a good thing if there will be a new console.

I've used the console in recording situations and to be honest with you having compared it to some very esoteric mic amps I own there isn't much in it. I suspect that some of the competition have considerably worse it terms of distortion,

in the hardware department - the faders dose not function well in a humid area,lots of offs on all faders in the israeli summer

and yeah 12 vcas is much more comfortable.

after all that bashing
i rather have a profile over a sd8/vi6/pm5d 99.9% of the time

12 groups and 12 VCA's would be nice. I've not had the problems with faders, however, England is probably no where near as humid.

I too still think that the Venue is the best in the market, perhaps that's why it has lasted so long without constant re-designs, not like one other popular manufacturer who is constantly updating their range. Obviously YMMV

[phatbeatstudio]

Would it matter if the new desks didn't have AAX support . Or if they were AAX TDM. What I mean is TDM has everything available would you some how feel left out if AAX was not part of it.
Nobody has ever said TDM plugs will not be continued just that TDM is no longer the current platform. I bet lots of new TDM plugs are still yet to be released. If only for the reason that a whole new era of TDM is here, where that technology has filtered down to the project studio of new comers or always wanted but couldn't afford. The 15/20 year old kid is gonna eat up line 6 plugs if they made them so a new market is born through rebirth of recycled hand me down technology. That maybe for the first time ever in the digital ara is still a viable alternative to the new current tools or toys. It does work and it works well and in 2 years any kid will be able to say they have a HD4 system for a grand . TDM is far from forgotten . I can't wait till those cards are $100 each Im gonna get a few just so if disaster happens I will still have a great home studio.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by phatbeatstudio

Would it matter if the new desks didn't have AAX support . Or if they were AAX TDM. What I mean is TDM has everything available would you some how feel left out if AAX was not part of it.
Nobody has ever said TDM plugs will not be continued just that TDM is no longer the current platform. I bet lots of new TDM plugs are still yet to be released. If only for the reason that a whole new era of TDM is here, where that technology has filtered down to the project studio of new comers or always wanted but couldn't afford. The 15/20 year old kid is gonna eat up line 6 plugs if they made them so a new market is born through rebirth of recycled hand me down technology. That maybe for the first time ever in the digital ara is still a viable alternative to the new current tools or toys. It does work and it works well and in 2 years any kid will be able to say they have a HD4 system for a grand . TDM is far from forgotten . I can't wait till those cards are $100 each Im gonna get a few just so if disaster happens I will still have a great home studio.

With the impending gutting of RTAS and TDM/DSP support out of Pro Tools 11 Avid will need to get all platforms over to AAX. They especially need plugin developers to move to AAX. Keeping TDM/DSP plugins around for an indeterminate time does not really help that. Avid has shown several signs starting back well before annoying AAX that they just did not want folks developing new plugins on TDM, I think the writing is clearly on the wall where all this will go.

Avid actually seems to be doing a pretty good job (besides Waves) in getting migration momentum to AAX and AAX DSP.

Maybe there will be some announcements for Venue folks at the AES conference.

Darryl

[vikingthor]

If Avid come’s with a new product line, I guess AAX DSP is in there instead of TDM, why use TDM if you want to promote AAX. By time, I’m willing to believe that even Waves come with their AAX plugin’s. (Waves compared to other plugin manufactures, has a lot plugins, rewriting all those plugin takes a lot of time and thus a lot of money).

If they want to extend their range with a smaller console it probably would still be TDM architecture to keep all show files the same.

I agree with every one here, the way venue systems are now 24 auxes, and no groups are very limited, especially compared to other manufactures like DiGiCo. If you look at a SD 10 you have 48 aux/ Groups. When it comes to horsepower I think the venue systems especially with Profile and the D-show do have a lot horse power (up to 5 dsp cards), but for now it seems that most of that power is only for plug-ins. Sometimes you do not need all the good Plugin toys, bud just a lot of busses.

When it comes to digital split, I hope to see AVB stage rack with digital split options.