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  #1  
Old 12-13-2022, 03:59 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Hi folks -

I have an Antelope Orion Synergy Core. I want to have the Orion in the room with me but connected to the computer in a machine closet. Seems like that’s not the intent of any of these machines. I’m wondering what others in a similar situation are doing for extending. I currently use a 15m Corning fiber optic cable to go from the closet to a Caldigit Thunderbolt 2 breakout box and from that to my monitor and some USB devices - and I can use the Orion over USB connected to a hub on that breakout box with no problem - it works very well with Pro Tools and Cubase - and the core audio drivers appear to be much more efficient than the Avid ones. But I’m assuming that the pass-through latency will be better using Thunderbolt - even Thunderbolt 2.

However, connecting by using a TB3 to 2 adapter and a 5-meter Corning fiber optic Thunderbolt cable doesn’t work. There is some communication, because the Orion control software switched to Oven from USB, but no audio passes and the hardware is often not acquired. While I’m ruling out the possibility of a bad cable, is anyone doing this kind of thing successfully?
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2022, 01:26 PM
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nednednerb nednednerb is offline
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

I might guess that the 3/2 adapter could be an issue. If the computer spec or some component is thunderbolt 1 and/or TB 2 backward compatible, the adapter might be problematic if some aspect of the setup requires authentic or direct TB 3 connectivity.

If you could eliminate the adapter and still connect, maybe the issue could be resolved. Otherwise, testing the same gear but upgrading the computer(s) to eliminate the need for old connections that way, could show the connection to be workable.

In general, connecting cables with interfaces and wit steps between has plentiful potential issues. If a single step is "out of spec" that is something to check. Ex. does box A expect TB 3 signal, and have I just adapted a 3 to 2 before getting to box A? This may seem obvious, but might have to be assessed with every single connection in the chain. It could end up being a driver not listening to TB the same way it listens to USB, such that connection-wise you're OK but software or driver is what's NO-GO.
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>> me: nednednerB //
||main gig: editing audio voiceovers & testing software | 2nd gig: music software tutoring | hobby: electronic music //
||software: Sonoma 14.2 | PT Studio 2023.12 | Ableton Live 11 | iZotope RX, Ozone, Neutron | Arturia Pigments | Auto-Tune | Dubler2 //
||system: iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2020) 10-Core-i9 | 128GB-DDR4 | 5700-XT-16GB | OWC Thunderbolt Hub and Thunderbolt 3 Dock //
||devices: RME Babyface Pro FS | Focusrite Clarett 2Pre | some AT mics | SM58 | Ableton Push 2 | Sennheiser HD 600 HP // Onkyo TX-8220 SR
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2022, 03:33 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Thanks for the reply. Antelope have said the adapter is fine as long as it’s Apple, and it is. I may have a bad cable. Time will tell.
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  #4  
Old 01-01-2023, 01:27 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

I didn’t specify something correctly: I am using a 2013 Mac Pro, which has TB2; connecting a TB2 fiber optic cable to the 2-to-3 adapter, which connects to the Orion.

Ironically, if I use USB to connect to the Orion, it works, even when I connect it to a USB3 hub attached to my CalDigit breakout box which is connected to the Mac with a 15-or 20-meter optical TB2 cable.

I’ve been told by an Antelope tech that the Orion requires that the cable length be within length limitation spec, whether optical or copper - but went on to say that he knew of someone who used active Thunderbolt cables to get some amount of extension - which would work if the issue was signal loss, which the optical cable doesn’t have. So no further clue here.
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  #5  
Old 01-01-2023, 06:30 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Ah yes the cross poster, before you burn at the stake for that, see your other thread https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=422818 where I've already mentioned what may be the issue.

Does the interface work OK if you use a copper Thunderbolt cable to the Thunderbolt adapter? If so the issue is likely that the adapter expects to be powered by the host computer... and optical Thunderbolt cables carry no power. That is exactly the only difference between an optical and copper connection. If so you can work around that with a different topology, with the Thunderbolt adapter ahead of the Thunderbolt 3 optical cable. But check it works OK with a copper cable first.

I would not generally assume Thunderbolt has to have lower latency than USB. Although Antelope has show they can get impressive low latency on Thunderbolt with their Discrete 4 (https://gearspace.com/board/music-co...data-base.html) It all depends on the quality/effort put into the drivers. Does Antelope publish latency/RTL specs? You might find RTL/Dawbench numbers for the interface exists, but I could not find any in a quick google search. If it works with a copper Thunderbolt cable, then grab a copy of RTL Utility (https://oblique-audio.com/rtl-utility.php) and measure it's RTL latency on USB and Thunderbolt and see if the difference is even worth worrying about for you before buying a new Corning Thunderbolt 3 cable.

I'm thinking of going Thunderbolt 3 optical to my rack, in large part to support easy longer distance and provide galvanic isolation from the rack computers. Today I'm running USB to the UFX+ interface since it's further away than Thunderbolt 3 copper can.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 01-01-2023 at 06:55 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-01-2023, 06:54 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Quote:
Originally Posted by melodydetective View Post
I’ve been told by an Antelope tech that the Orion requires that the cable length be within length limitation spec, whether optical or copper - but went on to say that he knew of someone who used active Thunderbolt cables to get some amount of extension - which would work if the issue was signal loss, which the optical cable doesn’t have. So no further clue here.
It's likely hard/impossible not be within specifications length, and you should not get problems by adding a optical cable on the end of a copper cable. The thunderbolt adapter and transceiver in the optical cable are boosting the signal again into the other cable.

There are Thunderbolt passive copper cables, typically limited to 0.5m and there are active copper cables, typically limited to 3m (or 2m in some cases, but the Apple Pro 3m ones sure as heck meet performance specs). Thunderbolt 3 optical cables typically are limited to 50m or 60m. The active cables have transceivers built into headshells that drive the signal over the longer cable.

You simply cannot purchase any reputable Thunderbolt copper cable that is "too long"... it only really exists if people try to use a non-Thunderbolt DisplayPort or USB-C cable or a power only/charging cable. Thunderbolt optical cables have similar transceivers built into their headshells permanently bonded to the optical fiber. Again there is simply no such thing as a too-long Thunderbolt 3 optical cable. And connecting the optical cable to anything resets the length spec count.

What a support person at Antelope should be asking is are you using a genuine/quality Thunderbolt 3 or 4 cable, say from Apple (those "Pro" cables are really nice) or Corning (fantastic cables) and that should be the end of any discussion about cable length. But again the issue is likely to be simply Thunderbolt optical cables do not pass power.
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  #7  
Old 01-02-2023, 01:08 PM
DaveBCC DaveBCC is offline
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

I have what could be considered the opposite setup (PC TB3 <-> apple TB3-TB2 adapter <-> 5m optical TB2 cable <-> Antelope Orion 32+ gen 3), and it has worked like a champ for over 3 years now, never had an issue.

For a long time there were issues with the optical TB2 cable transmitters (the lasers) burning up due to heat dumping from TB2 sources (in your case, the Mac Pro TB2 card). It might be that your TB2 cable has gotten damaged.
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Old 01-02-2023, 01:57 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBCC View Post
I have what could be considered the opposite setup (PC TB3 <-> apple TB3-TB2 adapter <-> 5m optical TB2 cable <-> Antelope Orion 32+ gen 3), and it has worked like a champ for over 3 years now, never had an issue.

For a long time there were issues with the optical TB2 cable transmitters (the lasers) burning up due to heat dumping from TB2 sources (in your case, the Mac Pro TB2 card). It might be that your TB2 cable has gotten damaged.
Or it could be, you know, the optical cables not passing power to the adapter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The optical cable *is* working. The Thunderbolt 2 optical cables do not transmit USB data. Unlike Thunderbolt 3, there is no USB protocol support at all in Thunderbolt 1 and 2. The only way USB is appearing at the other end is that the Caldigit box is creating USB out of pure Thunderbolt signals. Again, this all shows the Thunderbolt optical cable is working.

Again, there is no mystery here.

---

FWIW Corning claim better design and thermal shutdown protection on the Thunderbolt 3 optical cables laser damage should not happen. I hope they are still taking care of any customer with failed transmitters in the Thunderbolt 2 cables.
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Old 01-02-2023, 05:31 PM
DaveBCC DaveBCC is offline
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Or it could be, you know, the optical cables not passing power to the adapter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The optical cable *is* working. The Thunderbolt 2 optical cables do not transmit USB data. Unlike Thunderbolt 3, there is no USB protocol support at all in Thunderbolt 1 and 2. The only way USB is appearing at the other end is that the Caldigit box is creating USB out of pure Thunderbolt signals. Again, this all shows the Thunderbolt optical cable is working.

Again, there is no mystery here.

---

FWIW Corning claim better design and thermal shutdown protection on the Thunderbolt 3 optical cables laser damage should not happen. I hope they are still taking care of any customer with failed transmitters in the Thunderbolt 2 cables.
Thanks for the clarification ... I missed the part about data getting through the optical cable to the breakout box.

My understanding of the thermal issue in the cables is that is resolved as part of the TB3 spec:
https://macperformanceguide.com/blog...al-cables.html
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  #10  
Old 01-02-2023, 06:11 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is online now
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Default Re: The length of Thunderbolt 2/3 extension

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBCC View Post
Thanks for the clarification ... I missed the part about data getting through the optical cable to the breakout box.

My understanding of the thermal issue in the cables is that is resolved as part of the TB3 spec:
https://macperformanceguide.com/blog...al-cables.html
Yep that's one of the articles I remember looking at before. I guess I need to stop procrastinating and buy a TB3 optical cable or two. I just brought two new Apple Pro Cables and that hurt as well.

I like Corning stuff, use their optical cables for MADI and elsewhere for 10Gbit/40Gbit Ethernet.
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