Mixing In Pro Tools Vs. an Analog Console?

[CraigD]

How are the Bomb Factory Plug Ins? In specific, the LA-2A and 1176 & Fairchild and Moogerfooger bundles. Right now I'm using Waves Platinum, T-Racks & Amplitube. I'm always looking to add more, fat analog sound quality to my mixes.

I'm trying to get use to the plug-in feel of effects, EQ's, compressors, limiters, ect. rather than the feel of using a hardware unit. There is something to be said about twisting knobs and buttons, rather than using a mouse or arrow keys. Do you think the plug-ins are as good as the real hardware versions of the originals?

I'm using the Digi002 and it's cool, but there is something about mixing through an old console with designated EQ knobs for each channel, inserts and aux knobs and a rack full of the old original gear.

Pro Tools can't be beat for editing and automation, but I'm still up in the air about mixing on it. Does anyone else feel the same way or have any suggestions?

I study allot of pro engineers and what they use to mix and it seems that there are 3 trains of thought.

1. Engineers that record on 2" tape and mix on old analog consoles with all outboard gear. Great fat and broad sound. Especially noticeable in Drums and bass.

2. Engineers that record on 2" tape, then dump to Pro Tools and edit, then dump back to tape and mix on old analog consoles with outboard gear.

3. Engineers that track into Pro Tools running through vintage gear. Do all their edits in Pro Tools, and then mix on an SSL console or old analog console.

I never hear too much about pro engineers mixing in Pro Tools, only doing edits and minor automation with some plug ins. Seems they always like to come back out to a console to mix. This is my observation, as I am still searching to find the best way to record and mix.

I love Pro Tools for editing and automation, however I am still debating on mixing in Pro Tools with my Plug Ins and Digi002 or coming out to some kind of console with out board gear to mix.

What are your thoughts and feelings on this subject? I know everyone has there opinions on this and I'd like to hear them. I guess once you get use to EQing and mixing in Pro Tools, it could be done, it just seems that more professionals do it the way I described above. There must be a reason for that.

Thanks in Advance!

[CraigD]

Any thoughts on this???

[pk_hat]

How are the Bomb Factory Plug Ins? In specific, the LA-2A and 1176 & Fairchild and Moogerfooger bundles. Right now I'm using Waves Platinum, T-Racks & Amplitube. I'm always looking to add more, fat analog sound quality to my mixes.

Try PSP Vintage Warmer. IMO, the best damn compressor plugin, even better than BF, but that's just me. I think between that and T-Racks, you may need to turn on the AC to cool things off.

www.pspaudioware.com

I'm trying to get use to the plug-in feel of effects, EQ's, compressors, limiters, ect. rather than the feel of using a hardware unit. There is something to be said about twisting knobs and buttons, rather than using a mouse or arrow keys. Do you think the plug-ins are as good as the real hardware versions of the originals?

IMO, to a tuned and experienced ear, a BF Fairchild or 1176 plugin doesn't quite cut it against the real thing. I've never had the privilege of working with these vintage hardware compressors, but I wouldn't argue that at all.

I'm using the Digi002 and it's cool, but there is something about mixing through an old console with designated EQ knobs for each channel, inserts and aux knobs and a rack full of the old original gear.

Indeed, what more can we add to that. In the end, you use the tools you have as best you can and move on.

Pro Tools can't be beat for editing and automation, but I'm still up in the air about mixing on it. Does anyone else feel the same way or have any suggestions?

For those who come from mixing on good boards to doing everything "in the box" with plugs then yes, I can see it takes some adjustment, though I still believe that with the right talent, preamps and more importantly, good AD and DA converters, you can do an excellent job with an internal PT mix.

I study allot of pro engineers and what they use to mix and it seems that there are 3 trains of thought.

1. Engineers that record on 2" tape and mix on old analog consoles with all outboard gear. Great fat and broad sound. Especially noticeable in Drums and bass.

2. Engineers that record on 2" tape, then dump to Pro Tools and edit, then dump back to tape and mix on old analog consoles with outboard gear.

3. Engineers that track into Pro Tools running through vintage gear. Do all their edits in Pro Tools, and then mix on an SSL console or old analog console.

I never hear too much about pro engineers mixing in Pro Tools, only doing edits and minor automation with some plug ins. Seems they always like to come back out to a console to mix. This is my observation, as I am still searching to find the best way to record and mix.

They are certainly out there, those who mix entirely in the box, and like it or not, there will be many more. The love of mixing on an analog board will not dissapear, those who can do it this way will most likely keep at it, but there are many more engineers and producers now than there were merely 10 years ago, and mixing on such boards is not a reality for many of them, including myself.

I love Pro Tools for editing and automation, however I am still debating on mixing in Pro Tools with my Plug Ins and Digi002 or coming out to some kind of console with out board gear to mix.

What are your thoughts and feelings on this subject? I know everyone has there opinions on this and I'd like to hear them. I guess once you get use to EQing and mixing in Pro Tools, it could be done, it just seems that more professionals do it the way I described above. There must be a reason for that.

Well, yes, there is a reason. Analog circuits massage audio signals in a way a DSP cards cannot, that's a plain and simple fact. A Neve or SSL colours the sound and captures a much wider dynamic range when hitting the tape. So generally speaking, yes, I think mixing on analog to 2" will always sound better than 1's and 0's, sometimes marginally better, sometimes incredibly better, that depending on who's playing the tune and who's conducting the knobs.

You do get used to mixing in ProTools, however, everything sounded like crap when I first started. I didn't know how to get good levels in, I didn't know how to eq and compress properly, much less did I know what an AD converter was, everything sounded like cardboard. You learn a lot in 4 years of doing the same thing every day and staying passionate about it. If I had the money, I wouldn't even buy a board to mix on. Knowing what I know, I'd invest in more high-quality preamps and compressors (UA, Brent Averill, TubeTech, Distressors, Pendulum, Manley, etc.), as well as AD and DA converters and keep mixing in PT.


What you failed to mention was, are you in a position where you can mix on a good board if you chose too? If so, then your answers may be laying in front of you this whole time, though you seem to be wanting more than just opinions on the subject, but validation from others on either decision you make.

I don't think that there's much to debate in this case, really. If you have access to a good board, then by all means use it. Why not try a mix in ProTools alone and see how you like it? You'll get opinion out the yin-yang on this one, but eventually, it's gonna come down to deciding for yourself. Try one, try the other, and just use what sounds better to you.

[sndgeek]

How are the Bomb Factory Plug Ins? In specific, the LA-2A and 1176 & Fairchild and Moogerfooger bundles. Right now I'm using Waves Platinum, T-Racks & Amplitube. I'm always looking to add more, fat analog sound quality to my mixes.

I'm a big fan of Bomb Factory. Their Urei algorithms fatten up just about anything, without the nasty noise floor you get with the original analog gear. Best bang for the buck.

I'm trying to get use to the plug-in feel of effects, EQ's, compressors, limiters, ect. rather than the feel of using a hardware unit. There is something to be said about twisting knobs and buttons, rather than using a mouse or arrow keys. Do you think the plug-ins are as good as the real hardware versions of the originals?

I've almost gotten to the point where I can duplicate any outboard gear within ProTools. That said, nothing beats physical feedback and flying faders. I'm a younger generation, though--I grew up clicking the mouse and staring at computer screens for the vast majority of my life. To me it's easier to see a number on a screen rather than 'feel' out a compressor. But that's just me.

I'm using the Digi002 and it's cool, but there is something about mixing through an old console with designated EQ knobs for each channel, inserts and aux knobs and a rack full of the old original gear.
Pro Tools can't be beat for editing and automation, but I'm still up in the air about mixing on it. Does anyone else feel the same way or have any suggestions?

All the pro engineers, regardless of analog or digital, use a console of some sort. Todd-AO, out here in L.A., have Euphonix consoles for their feature film stages. The television mix stages have smaller SSL's. Both are digital, and both are taking direct feeds from ProTools sessions. You just can't get the same response out of a computer screen as a board full of flying faders and pan knobs. Most of all, it sounds better than simply running a ProTools session through one of its own I/O boxes. The Focusrite preamps are good, but it's hard to beat a million dollars worth of console.

I study allot of pro engineers and what they use to mix and it seems that there are 3 trains of thought.
1. Engineers that record on 2" tape and mix on old analog consoles with all outboard gear. Great fat and broad sound. Especially noticeable in Drums and bass.
2. Engineers that record on 2" tape, then dump to Pro Tools and edit, then dump back to tape and mix on old analog consoles with outboard gear.
3. Engineers that track into Pro Tools running through vintage gear. Do all their edits in Pro Tools, and then mix on an SSL console or old analog console.
I never hear too much about pro engineers mixing in Pro Tools, only doing edits and minor automation with some plug ins. Seems they always like to come back out to a console to mix. This is my observation, as I am still searching to find the best way to record and mix.
I love Pro Tools for editing and automation, however I am still debating on mixing in Pro Tools with my Plug Ins and Digi002 or coming out to some kind of console with out board gear to mix.

It's not impossible to mix entirely within ProTools with just a control surface. It's not the ideal situation, granted, but it'll do in a pinch. Heck, you may even get good at it. Unfortunately, ProTools does not make a good 'final mix' environment, especially when it comes to mastering. See some of the other posts on this board; editing is hands-down the easiest thing to do in PT, but mastering leaves much to be desired.

As a sound engineer I will attest to hearing the 'analog' difference. My last session, I had a vintage Trident board wired up to a ProTools rig via 4 ADAT XT-20s. (It was a splice job, not my first choice for going digital, but the 20-bit I/O held up.) Could you do a side-by-side comparison of direct in to ProTools vs. the console? Sure. You'd get better digital resolution going in, but what does that get you? More leeway with compression and s/n ratio. You'll have to downconvert to stick it on a CD anyway. What every engineer wants is a unique sound, a signature style. Digital doesn't afford that as part of the recording process. This is why we go nuts with plug-ins.

I guess once you get use to EQing and mixing in Pro Tools, it could be done, it just seems that more professionals do it the way I described above. There must be a reason for that.

Everyone's got a different approach. You see a lot of TV shows and some indy feature films mixed entirely within ProTools. Portability is definitely an issue--hard to pack up an SSL and ship off to North Dakota for a couple of weeks. However good the plugins are for ProTools, there are companies that just do outboard gear, and do it better than a guy trying to mimic the same setup in the computer. Given time this discrepancy will grow smaller; I envision a future where a core cluster of computers can crunch just about any analog effect you would want. Until then, racks of gear will occupy space behind me.

[tworooms]

How about sending all the outputs OUT to an analog mixer (max is 16 outs only from Digi 001 / 002 / 002R), and with all faders set to unity on the analog mixer, and with the main outs routed back into Digi 001 / 002 / 002R as a stereo Aux channel?

Would the above routing give Pro Tools (TDMs/HDs/LEs) the analog warmth?? Be it a mackie or a SSL, would the approach gives it the difference?

[mindnoise]

How about sending all the outputs OUT to an analog mixer and with the main outs routed back into Digi as a stereo Aux channel?
Would the above routing give Pro Tools (TDMs/HDs/LEs) the analog warmth?? Be it a mackie or a SSL, would the approach gives it the difference?

Some sort of! I´m using such a setup with a small and lovely Samson Mixpad 12, I know i´ts not the
best you can get but it sound so fantastically sweet, and the Hi and Low EQs give quite a "niceness" (not to overexaggerate as to call it "warmth") to my sounds, that goes missing when only working digital, and the loss of "qualtiy" in the resampling cycle can be neglected.

The point is the right gear in the right place works wonders! In my setup is, as I mentioned in other threads, a small tube compressor, a analogue Filterbank and my analogue mixpad, and that stuff is killer! compared to price/sound ratio. To be precise I have a very hard time in finding arguments to "if and why and what" additional plug-in can be justyfied to buy, and in most of the times I decide against a purchase.
OF course this is not perfect, but I am working on it

my story so far,

best

[mindnoise]

Moogerfooger bundles.

keep you hand off them, buy the REAL thing, not to be compared with the plugs and cost only slightly more! and is a thousand times more versatile!!!!! look at the modulation possibilities with the Ringmod hardware. you NEVER get that with the plug-in!

With a hardware that nearly can´t be obtained anymore, like Fairchild etc, there is at least some sense behind it.

best

[jermahusa]

How do you calculate 16 out from the Digi 002? I am in the process of trying to integrate a Soundtracs CM4400, and as best I can figure, I can only assign the 8 analog out, plus 2 alt main outputs for a total of 10. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

[saiguy]

Regards mixing in the box versus through a console, I had always believed the console should be better, but recent experience has proved the monitoring and ears of the engineer has a lot more to do with it. An album project I have tracked on a 001 then the artist took off to be mixed in a 'real' studio resulted in mixes that were marginally better than my monitor mixes, and in the case of the two strongest songs on the album, weaker - he ended up using my mixes for the final album. The 001 in-the-box mixes were wider, warmer, more depth just generally bigger than the analog console versions, and that's without using a gazillion plug-ins (maybe that's why). So use your ears, and you can get great results. Note: I don't use the 001 stock mic-pres or A-D. I think that has a lot to do with it.

[where02190]

How do you calculate 16 out from the Digi 002? I am in the process of trying to integrate a Soundtracs CM4400, and as best I can figure, I can only assign the 8 analog out, plus 2 alt main outputs for a total of 10. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

18 actually.
8 analog
8 ADAT lightpipe, you can get an Alesis AI-3 or similiar device for a few hundred bucks.
2 SPDIF, many options for againa few hundred on up for conversion to analog.

IF you have good converters, and a good sounding console, IMHO it gretly improves the sound of the digital domain by running through analog.

I hate mixing in the box, and only do so with additional tracks into protools. the first primary 24 tracks go analog via Mackie HDR 24/96 through a Soundtracs solologic with VCA and mute automation.
2 mix from Protools via Apogee converter mixes an additional 32 tracks back into the console.