Studio vs Indie film mix levels

[Nate Hoffman]

I've just been talking to a director who has made many independent films. He always does the mixes on dub stages and has had Dolby prepare the Dolby Digital tracks for the ones that went to 35mm print. As far as he knows, he has done everything the way the big studios do it. Every single time he has noticed that when played after a big studio feature in the theater, his films are always too quiet. He has checked and nothing in the playback system has been touched, so now he's wondering if there is a secret that the big studios aren't sharing. I checked my latest film mix against his latest and they are comparable in volume. I know some of the biggest players in the business are on this forum, so I thought I'd get your opinion. Why are the mixes of this indie film director always quieter than studio productions? I didn't think there was a loudness war going on in film sound, but maybe I'm wrong?

[gives]

Originally Posted by Nate Hoffman

I've just been talking to a director who has made many independent films. He always does the mixes on dub stages and has had Dolby prepare the Dolby Digital tracks for the ones that went to 35mm print. As far as he knows, he has done everything the way the big studios do it. Every single time he has noticed that when played after a big studio feature in the theater, his films are always too quiet. He has checked and nothing in the playback system has been touched, so now he's wondering if there is a secret that the big studios aren't sharing. I checked my latest film mix against his latest and they are comparable in volume. I know some of the biggest players in the business are on this forum, so I thought I'd get your opinion. Why are the mixes of this indie film director always quieter than studio productions? I didn't think there was a loudness war going on in film sound, but maybe I'm wrong?

Where is is doing his Dub Stage STuff.. YOu might ask Henchman on DUC.. He is mixing a feature film that I am scoring now and doing sound design for.
He works all over, but they are at Smart Post doing this one Mark Hensley is his name. http://www.markhensley.tv/mambo/
G

[lexaudio]

Originally Posted by Nate Hoffman

I've just been talking to a director who has made many independent films. He always does the mixes on dub stages and has had Dolby prepare the Dolby Digital tracks for the ones that went to 35mm print. As far as he knows, he has done everything the way the big studios do it. Every single time he has noticed that when played after a big studio feature in the theater, his films are always too quiet. He has checked and nothing in the playback system has been touched, so now he's wondering if there is a secret that the big studios aren't sharing. I checked my latest film mix against his latest and they are comparable in volume. I know some of the biggest players in the business are on this forum, so I thought I'd get your opinion. Why are the mixes of this indie film director always quieter than studio productions? I didn't think there was a loudness war going on in film sound, but maybe I'm wrong?

Room size is going to have alot to do with that. The big, big mixes are done on stages bigger than your house.

They are mixed for giant theaters, and your going to get louder mixes out of them.

If your in a smallish room, the mixers aren't going to need to push the mix as much to get the same amount of "air" are the larger dubbing theaters.
Now, there are facilities with smaller rooms that the really big ones who get that sound, or close to it because they know how to work that smaller room.

Marty Humphries is one. He has a good size room, but not as big as the big big rooms and gets great mixes out of there.

He's one you should ask too. Marty knows his room well, and knows how it translates to bigger rooms.
That's a big positive in a smaller room knowing how it translates.

there is also the director factor. There are alot of indie directors who are ultra sensitive to sound and get into this micro level management of levels and it is always turn it down, turn it down.
You get to a bigger theater and its quiet.

The more experienced directors I find are turning down, but not to the point of micro management.
They often want it louder, and when they are in the middle of the mix, most the time it is "Turn it up".

Most big features get temp dubs, sometimes multiple temp dubs where they can get a sense of how the rough mix is sounding in a larger theater with a crowd.
So the mixers get a first hand view of how the mixes are translating, or get word back from the director on it.

There are 100k rooms that are ok, and others that are really good. There are multimillion dollar rooms as well.

Listen to something you are familiar with, or listen to something the facility has done in their room and see what you think.
Its part experience on the mixers part, and part of the room.

Some mixers are more aggressive while others are a bit more delicate. Sometimes it depends on the type of movie. If it is large wall to wall action or a walk and talk.
Action is just going to be louder.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

I think a total loudness war is going on. How loud was Transformers? How loud was Pirates recently (not). How much variance is there in playback levels of cinemas- a lot.

Personally I think the film industry as a whole needs to sort this mess out - yes YOU Dolby and YOU the distributors and YOU the mixers and the directors - everyone is blaming each other and there is no collaboration (that I can see) to sort it out.

Mixing stages fixed in stone are meaningless if playback and consequently loudness levels to the public are totally variable..

My 2p's worth - as a customer (with great ears and a lot of experience) who will no longer be watching at his local local Odeon in Richmond. I think I will trust my experience to a West End London IMAX theatre or to BAFTA when I go and see Prometheus.

Cheers

[Henchman]

Lots of variables.
He could be mixing on nice dub stages, but getting B crews because of the rate he negotiated.
If he's doing indie action flicks with only a 5- 10 day dub, then he's not going to get the same type of mix, that major movies spend months mixing.
If he's doing walk and talk, and isn't happy, then he needs to find diffent mixers.

Just renting a nice dub stage means nothing if the mixers are average.

So, more info is needed

[Nate Hoffman]

Thanks for the input everybody! The mystery is that this phenomenon has been happening over many years with different mixers at different stages (at least some of which I know are well respected on this forum - both mixers and stages). It seems that there is a trend in the replies so far that suggests that because the indie mixes aren't as loud as studio ones that they aren't as good or that they've been done by inexperienced crew. Anybody, experienced or not, can raise overall levels while mixing, so I guess I'm wondering if that's what the big studios are in fact doing?

[mr.armadillo]

Loud is not only raising faders. Maybe those big films you are talking about are simply mixed more dynamic?

[Henchman]

There's no "big studio" magic that happens in a mix.
It's all on the hands of the mixers, director and producers hands.

[tom_lowe]

Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS

I think a total loudness war is going on. How loud was Transformers? How loud was Pirates recently (not). How much variance is there in playback levels of cinemas- a lot.

Personally I think the film industry as a whole needs to sort this mess out - yes YOU Dolby and YOU the distributors and YOU the mixers and the directors - everyone is blaming each other and there is no collaboration (that I can see) to sort it out.

Mixing stages fixed in stone are meaningless if playback and consequently loudness levels to the public are totally variable..

My 2p's worth - as a customer (with great ears and a lot of experience) who will no longer be watching at his local local Odeon in Richmond. I think I will trust my experience to a West End London IMAX theatre or to BAFTA when I go and see Prometheus.

Cheers

Basically cinema needs their own version of EBU R.128

[dr sound]

Originally Posted by lexaudio

Room size is going to have alot to do with that. The big, big mixes are done on stages bigger than your house.

They are mixed for giant theaters, and your going to get louder mixes out of them.

If your in a smallish room, the mixers aren't going to need to push the mix as much to get the same amount of "air" are the larger dubbing theaters.
Now, there are facilities with smaller rooms that the really big ones who get that sound, or close to it because they know how to work that smaller room.

Marty Humphries is one. He has a good size room, but not as big as the big big rooms and gets great mixes out of there.

He's one you should ask too. Marty knows his room well, and knows how it translates to bigger rooms.
That's a big positive in a smaller room knowing how it translates.

Lexaudio,
Thank you for the kind words! I appreciate it. My room does translate well.Recently we mixed a temp that was made into a DCP and then played back to an audience at "The Archlight" in Hollywood. It translated exactly like it was mixed and the clients were very happy.

FYI It's Marti Humphrey