doubling with duplicate track

[TinyWings]

Hi, all-- I'm in PT Studio 2022.9.0 running Windows 10. I have an electric guitar mono track that I want to be able to use in stereo, panned hard both ways. I duplicated the track exactly, including a little bit of EQ with the standard 7-band plug-in, panned the original hard left and the dupe hard right. I like the effect of the guitar providing a bed across the full stereo field. But for some reason, the duplicated track (right) is much thinner sounding than the original. It actually sounds good when hearing it in stereo in the mix. But why is it thin and weak sounding, even at the same volume? The plug-in settings are exactly the same. There's no automation. I use Tannoy Gold 7 monitors that are set up just the same. I tried playing with inverting phase and that didn't seem to help. I'm just curious if others have had this issue and if so, how to handle it. Thanks!

[albee1952]

Lots to consider here: What you describe sounds to me like you want the guitar part doubled. All you have done(so far) is make 2 of the exact same thing and panned each. This doesn't really make a double, its more like dual mono(of the same thing) and is really no different than the original track panned to the center. The things that make a real double sound so good is the slight discrepancies between the 2 tracks. These differences include slight timing differences, slight tuning differences(accidental, or on purpose, by re-tuning a little sharp or flat for the second take) and maybe tone changes. Tone changes can be slight(move the mic on the cab, switch to a different pickup), or more severe(different guitar, different amp, etc).

Some ideas to help:
1-the best way to double a part is to really perform it again.
2-if you can't do #1, take your duplicate and nudge it later by 1000-1600 samples(shorter offsets tend to create phasing issues).
3-enable Elastic Audio on one of the tracks and pitch-change by 6-11 semi-tones(just a starting point, adjust to suit).
4-EQ each track to be different. Don't get hung up on what each sounds like when in solo(they won't be heard that way by the listener).

I know there are several other tips and tricks, but this is to get you started

[sw rec]

I vote for Albee’s #1. Nothing like it.

[EGS]

Originally Posted by sw rec

I vote for Albee’s #1. Nothing like it.

+1

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by TinyWings

Hi, all-- I'm in PT Studio 2022.9.0 running Windows 10. I have an electric guitar mono track that I want to be able to use in stereo, panned hard both ways. I duplicated the track exactly, including a little bit of EQ with the standard 7-band plug-in, panned the original hard left and the dupe hard right. I like the effect of the guitar providing a bed across the full stereo field. But for some reason, the duplicated track (right) is much thinner sounding than the original. It actually sounds good when hearing it in stereo in the mix. But why is it thin and weak sounding, even at the same volume? The plug-in settings are exactly the same. There's no automation. I use Tannoy Gold 7 monitors that are set up just the same. I tried playing with inverting phase and that didn't seem to help. I'm just curious if others have had this issue and if so, how to handle it. Thanks!

Check the output levels in the meters are the same, try disabling one monitor. Then swap. What happens. Disable the plugins, what happens?

The reason stuff might sound so weak can be phase cancelation (which you clearly already suspect), you may have signals or one monitor outputs inverted, or your room may have a lot of reflection that is causing this. You don't get this in the same glaring way when you run different signals in L/R channels. You can also try listening on headphones to hear what happens (turn monitor outs off).

[noah330]

Swap the panning - put the one hard L and make it hard right and vise versa. Are the waveforms aligned?

[Ben Jenssen]

Hi, TinyWings, and welcome to the forum.

I just want you to get the basics straight:
A mono track played back on stereo speakers, comes out on both speakers identical, and is percieved as mono in the center of the stereo image. If you duplicate the track, and pan them L and R, the result will be the same; it sounds like mono in the center.

The moment you change anything on one of the duplicated tracks, like a delay or effect, suddenly the mono in the middle is gone; the two sides are no longer identical. It's often called 'pseudo-stereo' or similar, because it's often not very nice to listen to because you get phase cancellations and artifacts. In my 30+ years of audio work, I never found a good way to do this.

I agree with the previous speakers; recording it two times, which introduces the slight differences between R & L in a natural way, is the only way to go. But try it! You'll love it.

But Darryl's right, If you've simply copied the track and the two tracks are identical, and you have one sounding 'thinner' than the other, something else is going on that could be anything.


Google 'phase cancellation' to learn about using two duplicate mono tracks.

[TinyWings]

Thanks!

[TinyWings]

Good call, thanks

[TinyWings]

thanks!