Creating depth in a mix

[peppertree]

I think mostly it has to do with open arrangements. Yes there's lots of things you can do with EQ and HPF and compression and reverb and delay and panning. But at some point you are left playing with the cards you're dealt, and often the band/producer has cluttered things up to the point you aren't getting depth no how.

So perhaps the greatest control you can use to provide depth in a mix is the button marked "Mute."

[daeron80]

True. It's easy to make a good mix of a good song well arranged, it's hard to make a good mix of a good song poorly arranged, and it's really hard to make a good mix of a bad song.

Performance is part of that. A key to clarity is instruments "taking turns," which can be as subtle a thing as attacks on the same beats falling a few milliseconds apart. If the bass is sitting right on top of the kick (timing wise), the kick usually won't come out no matter what you do. The sad thing is, having the engineer move the bass a little late doesn't usually work - it just has to be replayed till it sits in its pocket. I mean, you can move a stray note here and there, but not the whole track, usually.

[Bob Olhsson]

Pre-delay on reverb is probably the easiest. Long pre-delay makes things sound close. Short or no pre-delay makes things sound distant. Close things have more top end, far things have less.

[shultzee13]

For a full rock band recording can someone give me a 3D analysis of where you think each instrument should set in the mix panning wise?

Lead Vocals in the middle
Rhythm guitars 1 o clock
Bass guitar....
drums...
keyboards...

etc....

Thanks guys.

[peppertree]

Originally Posted by shultzee13

For a full rock band recording can someone give me a 3D analysis of where you think each instrument should set in the mix panning wise?

Lead Vocals in the middle
Rhythm guitars 1 o clock
Bass guitar....
drums...
keyboards...

etc....

Thanks guys.

Many people believe in the "cardinal points" or LCR approach where the only panning positions are full left, dead center, and full right.

This may have come from a quite flawed paper Dave Moulton wrote 15 years ago in which he claimed you could only hear the cardinal points. The flaw in his testing was that he only tested absolute pan positions with a single tone, he didn't test relative pan positions with multiple tones, which can be easily distinguished in very fine panning differences (<5%). So the idea that there is a scientific basis for LCR mixing is bunkum.

Still, if you have the width you probably ought to use it, as long as there is relative balance within each major frequency band so one ear doesn't grow tired. Headphone monitoring is ever-more important due to the ipod and excessive width can be bothersome in headphones. 90% left sounds louder and fuller than 100% left without sacrificing much width perception. And as I argued even a 5% panning difference can serve to differentiate sounds in the brain.

When vinyl was king the bass frequencies had to be center otherwise the needle would pop out of the groove...so that is a standard, carried forward with the ".1" subwoofer standard. Bass frequencies are more directional than people would have you believe though (your brain uses phase information to place them). Interesting things can be done that way.

Basically there are no rules, but if you are looking for the conventional wisdom, it would be to use LCR only and just make sure the arrangement includes enough doubled parts to allow most of the instruments above 300Hz to be panned wide other than voice and snare. I don't follow that convention myself, but I have learned its strengths.

[daeron80]

Originally Posted by shultzee13

For a full rock band recording can someone give me a 3D analysis of where you think each instrument should set in the mix panning wise?

I think those decisions are best left to the mixer's imagination on a song-by-song basis. Early brit rock (Beatles and Pink Floyd come to mind) did some delightful experimentation with it. Since then, we've kind of fallen into some boring defaults. Imagine an interesting sound stage, create it, and see if it works.

[jello]

putting a 10ms delay on drumroom microphone(s) and slam it to hell with a compressor give you a huge 3D drum sound (think steve albini)

[Naagzh]

Originally Posted by daeron80

I think those decisions are best left to the mixer's imagination on a song-by-song basis. Early brit rock (Beatles and Pink Floyd come to mind) did some delightful experimentation with it. Since then, we've kind of fallen into some boring defaults. Imagine an interesting sound stage, create it, and see if it works.

I guess I'm more conservative! :)

Usually, kick, snare, bass, and lead vox are center. Cymbals can get very wide using a spaced pair for overheads (hi-hat/crash can be almost all the way right, ride/crash almost all the way left), and narrower with standard 90 degree XY pattern (sounds more like a kit). Elements that are center should usually be distinguished by their depth (bring on the delay, reverb, room mics, compression, etc. but keep it tasty).

For guitars, wide panning (+/- 85 to 100) is popular for more modern material. Most "classic" rock and blues lean toward softer panning (check out Appetite For Destruction). Keys are usually center, but recorded stereo, panned wide, and given plenty of depth (reverb, delay) and swirl (tremolo, chorus, Leslie cabs).

The older I get, the less I like the WIDE approach. I just feel like the music gels together more when the panning is softer (+/- 50 or 75 at the most), and while driving you can hear both sides a bit easier. Ultimately, I only want the song and its performance, the less distractions, the better. I used to pan everything wide as I could, and when I listen back now, it sounds amateurish to me. Of course, a double-tracked vocal (or two lead vocals) can be panned wide for great effect (The Level by The Raconteurs comes to mind).

Another reason to pan narrower is because your local bar doesn't always have a stereo pair of speakers in each corner. Ever listen to the left side of "Back In Black"? Not as cool as both sides. There are James Brown recordings where his voice is the only thing on one side, and the band is on the other. Cool, maybe, but IMHO gimmicky.

One more thing: panning 'tricks' can easily sound dated, and chances are good that Zeppelin did it first anyways. So if you're gonna do something weird, know your history.