Vivdeo frame rates are driving me nuts

[Farmer Dave]

7.2cs1
HD3 Accel
10.4.7
DPG5 2G

We need another feature request to allow multiple frame rate video's in the same session. It doesn't just allow "offline" videos, to be different rates. Any video in the session, regardless if it's in the timeline or not, has to match, and it's making me crazy.

My current session requires many individual video files (short Maya outputs) to be in the same session (and on the timeline). While I was LOVING the multiple video's of 7.2 (still am really), I have a situation I can't correct. Most of the videos I get are at 29.97, but the latest batch of video's I got are 30f. I've used 4 different apps to try to convert the video's to 29.97, and I got most of them to work. Oddly, every app I used, except FCP, converted them to 30f regardless how I had my output set up. But I have this one video file, that was in the SAME FCP batch as other files, that won't import into PT. QT claims it's 29.97, and all the OTHER video files exported in the same batch DO work, but I can't get this file into my session. PT claims it has a different frame rate as the existing video's, but it's the same batch output as other working files, AND the same video frame rate. I exported as Motion JPEG A, 29.97.

We have GOT to get different frame rates in the same session, even if it means a different video track for every frame rate.

[Farmer Dave]

In my current session it appears that PT, or the FInder - I have no idea, wasn't updating the file info correctly. All I did was rename the file it wouldn't import, and then it let me import it. There were no illegal characters.

Here's how it happened.

1) Tried import the video file - frame rate wrong.
2) Converted the file, to the same destination, and with the same name.
3) Tried to import the file - PT said the frame rate was still wrong.
4) Closed & re-opened the session - same result.
5) Renamed the video file in the Finder (just added a "b' before the extension) - PT allowed import.

It's almost as if PT saved the path info as a file it couldn't import, and then wouldn't allow it to import, even after the file was the correct rate.

At the very least, when PT warns us the frame rate doesn't match, it should tell us what the session video frame rate is, so we know what we've got to convert to. It'd be great if it told us both the session frame rate, and the frame rate of the file we're trying to import.

Obviously, frame rate conversions won't always work, and in the wrong hands projects will drift out of sync, but this is info we need to know.

[RobMacki]

We have GOT to get different frame rates in the same session, even if it means a different video track for every frame rate.

I think you are asking for the impossible.
FR=SR

30fps real time at 48.048kHz pulled down = 29.97fps (pulled down time) 48kHz or

30fps at 48kHz = 29.97 at 48kHz pulled down or 47.952kHz
etc.

Frame rate = SMPTE TC speed.

hth

[Chief Technician]

Rob is not wrong. Notice how I didn't say he was right. If there were multiple video tracks, and each track was a different video frame rate, then I can conceive a way around Rob's claim. Only one track can be active at a time, yes? So have a speed setting (pull-up, no pull, pull-down) for each video track. The video track that is online then has its settings applied for the sample rate. This way you could take your 30 FPS video track, set it to pull-up (48.048kHz), and then when you go back to your 29.97 FPS video track, set it to none (48kHz), and all should be well.

[RobMacki]

Interesting.
This got me thinking about a scenario with multiple sessions open at the same time.

[Sonny Keyes]

It's almost as if PT saved the path info as a file it couldn't import, and then wouldn't allow it to import, even after the file was the correct rate.

I had a similar experience when I tried to import a file while it was still copying to the server. PT (understandably) complained that it couldn't understand the file. When I later tried to import the same file (now complete and working in other apps) PT still complained that it couldn't understand the file. I tried restarting the computer (while the client was otherwise engaged!) and it imported fine.

I guess the lesson is that if you have a video file with a problem, PT will harbor ill-will towards that file until you 'disguise' it. If it happens again I'll try your trick of renaming it so PT doesn't 'remember' the problem. Thanks!

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[DigiTechSupt]

Just a suggestion, rather than make Pro Tools accomodate a problem created else where, why not go back to the video source and have them create/export the video correctly?

Yes, there could be a scenario where different frame rates in Pro Tools would be helpful and nice but as I see it, different frame rates in the same project suggests a problem(s) some where in the work flow that 1) should have been addressed at the beginning of the project and 2) is going to come back to bite you sooner or later.

If were Pro Tools were able to have two or more frames rates, you'd just be postponing resolving the problem even later.

Two cents,

Jon Connolly
Digidesign Product Specialist

[Farmer Dave]

Just a suggestion, rather than make Pro Tools accomodate a problem created else where, why not go back to the video source and have them create/export the video correctly?

Yes, there could be a scenario where different frame rates in Pro Tools would be helpful and nice but as I see it, different frame rates in the same project suggests a problem(s) some where in the work flow that 1) should have been addressed at the beginning of the project and 2) is going to come back to bite you sooner or later.

If were Pro Tools were able to have two or more frames rates, you'd just be postponing resolving the problem even later.

Two cents,

Jon Connolly
Digidesign Product Specialist

Well, as I said, I tried converting the file myself several times, and even when it was CORRECT, PT still couldn't import it (until it was renamed), so that's a bug. (Now that I've identified it, I can work around it, but I was pulling my hair out until that point.)

HOWEVER, I still have an "every day" scenario of multiple projects, of varying frame rates (not mistakes, but legitimately different frame rates), that really ought to live in the same session, for source material (since PT doesn't allow me to have multiple sessions open at once, I HAVE to keep it all in the same session.) I'm only keeping it all in one session because PT forces me to.

IF you guys want to allow multiple sessions open at once, and drag & drop between them, fine by me. But I stand behind the concept (as an end user), that multiple frame rates, even on different tracks, is a very useful thing. Don't think of it as only a workaround to "resolve a problem, that would need to be resolved later".

[Farmer Dave]

7.3.1cs2 & this is still a big problem. I have 2 video files that are the same rate, according to FCP, and PT won't let me import the second one.


File 1:

Duration: 00:08:31:27
Average Data Rate: 1010k/sec

Video Track 1 (497.4 MB)
Duration: 00:08:32:12
Frame Size: 640 x 480
Color Depth: 24-bit Color
Codec: Motion JPEG A at Medium Quality
Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
Average Data Rate: 994k/sec (33k/frame)
This track appears to have dropped frames.
This track contains:
15047 frames of a duration of 20.0000 frames
308 frames of a duration of 21.0000 frames

Audio Track 1 (Stereo, 7.8 MB)
Duration: 00:08:32:12
Average Data Rate: 16k/sec
Format: 16-bit, Stereo
Sampling Rate: 48.000 khz




File 2:

Duration: 00:00:13:18
Average Data Rate: 1205k/sec

Video Track 1 (13.5 MB)
Duration: 00:00:13:18
Frame Size: 640 x 480
Color Depth: 24-bit Color
Codec: Motion JPEG A at Medium Quality
Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
Average Data Rate: 1018k/sec (34k/frame)

Audio Track 1 (Stereo, 2.5 MB)
Duration: 00:00:13:18
Average Data Rate: 188k/sec
Format: 16-bit, Stereo
Sampling Rate: 48.000 khz



So clearly PT is seeing more than it's telling us. There are some differences here, but it's not the frame rate, or even the codec. If PT is going to refuse letting us import these two files, it should at the very least, be telling us what the new file needs to be to allow it to be imported. I'm pulling my hair out over this one. I might as well not have multiple video capability.

[minister]

Farmer Dave,

i have a thought...

don't know if it applies....

sometimes, i can't import 2 different, but seemingly similar QT's into VVTR... becauae one of them is not tagged as a 'Moov' file.

use this little app

FileInfo

to verify that they are both the same file type.... "MooV'


can't hurt. when i did this, i was able to change the one that wasn't to a movie file and it worked. simply type in the type of file it is supposed to be and save.