Latency issue - i think I am paranoid, or maybe not!

[amoretam]

Hi there, I cannot use a buffer size lower than 512 .

I cannot almost hear no delay, but I want to know if the audio get recorded late too?

I mean, is the audio recorded in the same spot in time as I hear it??

Do I have to nudge tracks early in time everytime I record to preserve the feel of it??

Even though I can't possibly hear it I absolutely don't want no subtle time alteration happening in my recordings.

I find it tedious enough that I have to manually compensate for I/O, Converters and Plugins delay with DigiRack Time adjuster every-time I am going to mix.

would you guys clarify this to me...?

oh. another thing, when I am in the mixing stage and I am doing every track's Dlay aligment,
Do I have to mix with the same buffer size in order to preserve the previous manual alignment done with Time Adjuster??

Because everytime I change buffer size a new plugin delay is displayed in the tracks Dlay view..

Is this clear or I am talking no so good english,..??

Sorry for my bad english then

THANKS

oh here s Sandra:

Computer
Model : XFX MB-750I-72P9
Workgroup : WORKGROUP
Host Name : amoretam-PC
User : amoretam

Processor
Model : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz
Speed : 2.67GHz
Cores per Processor : 4 Unit(s)
Threads per Core : 1 Unit(s)
Type : Quad-Core
Integrated Data Cache : 4x 32kB, Synchronous, Write-Thru, 8-way, 64 byte line size
L2 On-board Cache : 2x 3MB, ECC, Synchronous, ATC, 12-way, 64 byte line size, 2 threads sharing

Computer
Mainboard : XFX MB-750I-72P9
BIOS : AMI V1.4B1 02/04/2009
Bus(es) : ISA X-Bus PCI PCIe IMB USB FireWire/1394 i2c/SMBus
Multi-Processor (MP) Support : No
Multi-Processor Advanced PIC (APIC) : Yes
Total Memory : 8GB DIMM SDRAM

Chipset
Model : nVidia C55 Host Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 4x 333MHz (1.33GHz)
Total Memory : 8GB DIMM SDRAM

Memory Module(s)
Memory Module : Corsair CM2X2048-6400C5 2GB DIMM DDR2 PC2-6400U DDR2-800 (5-5-5-18 3-22-6-3)
Memory Module : Corsair CM2X2048-6400C5 2GB DIMM DDR2 PC2-6400U DDR2-800 (5-5-5-18 3-22-6-3)
Memory Module : Corsair CM2X2048-6400C5 2GB DIMM DDR2 PC2-6400U DDR2-800 (5-5-5-18 3-22-6-3)
Memory Module : Corsair CM2X2048-6400C5 2GB DIMM DDR2 PC2-6400U DDR2-800 (5-5-5-18 3-22-6-3)

Video System
Video Adapter : ATI Radeon HD 4300/4500 Series (40 SM4.1 650MHz, 512MB DDR3 2x400MHz, PCIe 2.00 x16)

Graphics Processor
Adapter : ATI Radeon HD 4300/4500 Series (40SP 2C 650MHz, 512MB 2x400MHz)

Storage Devices
Hitachi HDP725050GLA360 (500.1GB, SATA300, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ, 15MB Cache) : 466GB (B:) (C:)
WDC WD5000AAKS-00A7B2 (500.1GB, SATA300, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ, 16MB Cache) : 466GB (M:) (N:)
WDC WD1002FAEX-007BA0 (1TB, SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ) : 932GB (D:)
HL-DT-ST DVD-RAM GH22NP20 (ATAPI, DVD+-RW, CD-RW, 2MB Cache) : N/A (E:)

Logical Storage Devices
Hard Disk (C:) : 139GB (NTFS) @ Hitachi HDP725050GLA360 (500.1GB, SATA300, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ, 15MB Cache)
GRABADO (M:) : 200GB (NTFS) @ WDC WD5000AAKS-00A7B2 (500.1GB, SATA300, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ, 16MB Cache)
LIBRERIA (D:) : 932GB (NTFS) @ WDC WD1002FAEX-007BA0 (1TB, SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ)
OPEN (N:) : 266GB (NTFS) @ WDC WD5000AAKS-00A7B2 (500.1GB, SATA300, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ, 16MB Cache)
MULTI ETC (B:) : 327GB (NTFS) @ Hitachi HDP725050GLA360 (500.1GB, SATA300, 3.5", 7200rpm, NCQ, 15MB Cache)
Optical Drive (E:) : N/A @ HL-DT-ST DVD-RAM GH22NP20 (ATAPI, DVD+-RW, CD-RW, 2MB Cache)

Peripherals
LPC Hub Controller 1 : MSI MCP51 LPC Bridge
LPC Legacy Controller 1 : Fintek F71882FG/F71883FG
Audio Device : Giga-Byte RV730XT Audio device [Radeon HD 4670]
Serial Port(s) : 1
Disk Controller : MSI MCP51 Parallel ATA Controller
Disk Controller : MSI MCP51 Serial ATA Controller
Disk Controller : MSI MCP51 Serial ATA Controller
Disk Controller : MSI JMB36X PCIE-to-SATAII/IDE RAID Controller
USB Controller 1 : MSI MCP51 USB Controller
USB Controller 2 : MSI MCP51 USB Controller
FireWire/1394 Controller 1 : MSI VT6306 VIA Fire II IEEE-1394 OHCI Link Layer Controller
SMBus/i2c Controller 1 : nVidia MCP5+ SMBus 1
SMBus/i2c Controller 2 : nVidia MCP5+ SMBus 2

Network Services

Power Management
Mains (AC) Line Status : On-Line

Operating System
Windows System : Microsoft Windows 7 Business 6.01.7601 (Service Pack 1)
Platform Compliance : x64

Windows Experience Index
Current System : 3.8
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[albee1952]

I suspect this is your problem:
Chipset
Model : nVidia C55 Host Bridge
Intel processors need an approved chipset to run Pro Tools(and nVidia is not approved AFAIK). Any quad core setup should run at 64 or 128 buffer settings just fine. An approved Asus motherboard might solve everything, but a new mobo will require a fresh install of OS and all software, unless you want to try Acronis True Image with the PLUS pack. It claims to be able to restore a drive image to different hardware. I tried it once without success, but that could have been my fault Hopefully, someone can offer up a mobo model number. I think the Q9400 is a socket 775 and there are(or were) a few solid setups out there

[amoretam]

Originally Posted by albee1952

I suspect this is your problem:
Chipset
Model : nVidia C55 Host Bridge
Intel processors need an approved chipset to run Pro Tools(and nVidia is not approved AFAIK). Any quad core setup should run at 64 or 128 buffer settings just fine. An approved Asus motherboard might solve everything, but a new mobo will require a fresh install of OS and all software, unless you want to try Acronis True Image with the PLUS pack. It claims to be able to restore a drive image to different hardware. I tried it once without success, but that could have been my fault Hopefully, someone can offer up a mobo model number. I think the Q9400 is a socket 775 and there are(or were) a few solid setups out there

Hey thanks albee1952 for your response.

Yes, I know my motherboard is not qualified, but I have been able to work very stable with it. I can get to 64 buffer size in projects where I am not using Spdif...
...With time, I have learn about the resources management that this particular system of mine requires with very much success. It seems that Spdif is one of the limitations I haven't figure out.

So In order to figure it out, I'd like to ask you a few generic questions about latency and this project I am currently working (please if you can explain a little bit):

1- Is the buffer size affecting when recorded material is going to be recorded or it just affects when you hear it (latency)?
I ask you this because I am planning to set buffer size at 2048 and monitor myself with a mixer before going into protools. (Zero Latency Monitoring)

2- Can I change buffer sizes to different settings while recording without having Dly misalignment issues with Insert/Aux plugins?
I ask you this because I record while I am mixing therefore lots of plugins are going on in real time in my session?

Futher explaining: When I do latency compensation with Digirack TA ( for example to compensate for latency induced by altiverb place on an Aux) and I change buffer settings, I see that the Dly view changes samples latency reading accordingly. Do I have to keep on re-adjusting Digirack TA everytime I change buffer size so my tracks don't get phasing problems?

3- Is Zero Latency Monitoring a good solution to record with aux/inserts plugins without having to worry about latency nightmare?

Thanks a lot and sorry for my english, I hope I am clear..

[albee1952]

While we wait for someone smarter than me, here's my take:
1- Is the buffer size affecting when recorded material is going to be recorded or it just affects when you hear it (latency)?
I ask you this because I am planning to set buffer size at 2048 and monitor myself with a mixer before going into protools. (Zero Latency Monitoring) In theory, no(the audio engine is supposed to take the buffer size into account and place audio correctly). Using a big buffer may make doing punch-ins a nightmare. Pro Tools 8.0.4 has a serious timing issue that required a cs update to help-and it helped for all EXCEPT the 48K sample rate. Can't speak for 8.0.5 as I went to 9.

2- Can I change buffer sizes to different settings while recording without having Dly misalignment issues with Insert/Aux plugins?
I ask you this because I record while I am mixing therefore lots of plugins are going on in real time in my session? Once audio is recorded, it doesn't move(unless you move it), but certain plugins can cause anywhere from 0 to over 8000 samples of latency, which can really screw things up. PT9 has ADC, which can compensate for up to 4096 samples of plugin latency(but remember, compensation moves everything LATER to match the track with the highest latency, so that can make punch-ins even harder). Disabling compensation while tracking can help.

Futher explaining: When I do latency compensation with Digirack TA ( for example to compensate for latency induced by altiverb place on an Aux) and I change buffer settings, I see that the Dly view changes samples latency reading accordingly. Do I have to keep on re-adjusting Digirack TA everytime I change buffer size so my tracks don't get phasing problems? In theory, no. Reverbs should be run on AUX tracks and fed by AUX sends. By running the reverb at 100% wet(no dry signal), you don't need to compensate or consider latency on the verb. Just chalk it up to built-in predelay(which you would adjust by ear anyway)

3- Is Zero Latency Monitoring a good solution to record with aux/inserts plugins without having to worry about latency nightmare? Define Zero Latency Monitoring. If you mean Low Latency Monitoring(an option for Pro Tools firewire interfaces) that function solve latency, but disables sends and plugins on the record-enabled tracks. If you refer to using a hardware mixer for direct monitoring, then you won't be listening to the plugins at all. Personally, I would either solve the hardware issues so you can record at 64(and monitor from the session). Adding a hardware mixer just over-complicates the setup IMHO(and I'm an old analog guy). I stay in the box, because it works for me

You might be paranoid, but its still a good idea to pay attention to this stuff

[amoretam]

Originally Posted by albee1952

While we wait for someone smarter than me, here's my take:
1- Is the buffer size affecting when recorded material is going to be recorded or it just affects when you hear it (latency)?
I ask you this because I am planning to set buffer size at 2048 and monitor myself with a mixer before going into protools. (Zero Latency Monitoring) In theory, no(the audio engine is supposed to take the buffer size into account and place audio correctly). Using a big buffer may make doing punch-ins a nightmare. Pro Tools 8.0.4 has a serious timing issue that required a cs update to help-and it helped for all EXCEPT the 48K sample rate. Can't speak for 8.0.5 as I went to 9.

2- Can I change buffer sizes to different settings while recording without having Dly misalignment issues with Insert/Aux plugins?
I ask you this because I record while I am mixing therefore lots of plugins are going on in real time in my session? Once audio is recorded, it doesn't move(unless you move it), but certain plugins can cause anywhere from 0 to over 8000 samples of latency, which can really screw things up. PT9 has ADC, which can compensate for up to 4096 samples of plugin latency(but remember, compensation moves everything LATER to match the track with the highest latency, so that can make punch-ins even harder). Disabling compensation while tracking can help.

Futher explaining: When I do latency compensation with Digirack TA ( for example to compensate for latency induced by altiverb place on an Aux) and I change buffer settings, I see that the Dly view changes samples latency reading accordingly. Do I have to keep on re-adjusting Digirack TA everytime I change buffer size so my tracks don't get phasing problems? In theory, no. Reverbs should be run on AUX tracks and fed by AUX sends. By running the reverb at 100% wet(no dry signal), you don't need to compensate or consider latency on the verb. Just chalk it up to built-in predelay(which you would adjust by ear anyway)

3- Is Zero Latency Monitoring a good solution to record with aux/inserts plugins without having to worry about latency nightmare? Define Zero Latency Monitoring. If you mean Low Latency Monitoring(an option for Pro Tools firewire interfaces) that function solve latency, but disables sends and plugins on the record-enabled tracks. If you refer to using a hardware mixer for direct monitoring, then you won't be listening to the plugins at all. Personally, I would either solve the hardware issues so you can record at 64(and monitor from the session). Adding a hardware mixer just over-complicates the setup IMHO(and I'm an old analog guy). I stay in the box, because it works for me

You might be paranoid, but its still a good idea to pay attention to this stuff

Hey thanks for taking your time..
This is very confusing, I cannot afford to go to PT9 yet.

Zero Latency Monitoring is what people with the Mbox series can do, they have a Mix knob to adjust the direct signal so you can monitor it before it gets to PT.

I am working at 64 buffer size right now, but not with the SPDIF session.
But my problem is not that right now, in fact I have no problems, i am just very concerned with this Dly induced by plugins cause I am a composer and while I compose I have to record in the mixing stage with lots of plugins enabled.

It becomes not too comfortable to see how my tracks have different Dly readings.
When I try to record, for example with Gtr Rig (which has a 10 samples Dly), I don;t like the idea that the other tracks may be offset, but if I want to align everybody, I have to go through a huge process, but then If I change the buffer size, everybody is unaligned again!!

I don;t like the idea that a pre delay is induced by this Dly stuff and no by me voluntarily. what if I want no pre-delay at all?

I became concerned with this latency stuff after comparing some unaligned material I have, the different is huge, is a phasing nightmare.

I tried recording overdubs with 2048 buffer size and my track muted, why is it recording the material ahead in time??

I don;t like this timing inconsistencies, this is just pro-tools not my system.

Anyone else can answer me this questions..?

Thanks a lot.... tchau