Discovery Channel and short term loudness on Documentaries

[Crookman]

Hello all, there have been a couple of posts on this but not that answers my particular question.
I was wondering whether anyone has had experience with how stringent DCI are with short term loudness perimeters. I get they will let lower levels go on quieter sections where dialogue is scarce or non existent but I'm finding it tricky and rather frustrating to comply with the upper limit of -20LUFS on sections that involve shouting or sustained higher energy scenes. strictly complying to the spec really flattens the mix.
Is this everyones view or am I missing something?

Many thanks
Steve

[smurfyou]

You're not missing anything, it is a stupid spec that ignores the whole premise of loudness standards. Just like they got it all wrong with Dialnorm before this.

I've definitely gone over. (For one of their other networks, not Discovery Channel - I have no idea if they have more than one QC dept).

[Brandonx1]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

You're not missing anything, it is a stupid spec that ignores the whole premise of loudness standard.

No not Discovery!?

[V5V]

Just let the mix be a little "flatter." Your audience will thank you.

I don't understand why anyone would WANT a lot of dynamic range. It's TV, not a feature. Mumbly quiet bits and bursts of loud shouting send the viewer diving for the volume control, either uttering the dreaded "Whadhesay?" complaint or cursing the kid-waking, neighbour-annoying, senses-shocking volume.

There may also actually be valid technical reasons for the hard cap on level, and exceeding it might just make your louder bit duck or break up, both of which are going to have a much more deleterious affect on your product than just keeping the maximum level in check in the first place.

[Crookman]

Originally Posted by V5V

Just let the mix be a little "flatter." Your audience will thank you.

I don't understand why anyone would WANT a lot of dynamic range. It's TV, not a feature. Mumbly quiet bits and bursts of loud shouting send the viewer diving for the volume control, either uttering the dreaded "Whadhesay?" complaint or cursing the kid-waking, neighbour-annoying, senses-shocking volume.

There may also actually be valid technical reasons for the hard cap on level, and exceeding it might just make your louder bit duck or break up, both of which are going to have a much more deleterious affect on your product than just keeping the maximum level in check in the first place.

And here lies my problem. The true peak cap of -2dBFS with a stipulation that only momentary excursions above -6dBFS is totally understandable to prevent clipping. I get that. As I also understand the need to limit the dynamic range of a program destined tor tv. But for me an absolute hard line cut off for short term loudness of 4LU above -24 is too prescriptive and has nothing to do with frying components in the transmission chain.
Of course we don't want the viewers reaching for the remote but for me, if you have to hit an integrated loudness of -24, a three second short term loudness window at -20 does not allow for those moments where a little extra is needed to make the scene work. Just as Discovery have the lower short term limit at -28 but the unders are viewed in context, I think the same same should be done for the upper level. If an absolute upper short term range needed to be set, -17LUFS seems a more reasonable limit for louder sections.
Most other broadcasters I work for are coping fine without such hard line perameters and are delivering content to other territories. To me it seems Discovery have moved 2 steps forward only to shoot itself in the foot.
That said, I'm quite happy to be put on the Discovery straight and narrow - it's just that no-one has given me a logical and well reasoned argument.

[lucienpalmer]

Very odd. I hadn't heard of anyone specify a loudness level peak. It does contradict the point of having a system based on the average loudness over the duration of the program.

Now I'm curious to pull up an old show and see where my highest loudness peaks are. I'm sure they frequently go above -24.

[lucienpalmer]

Oh yeah. I just checked the last show I did for A&E, and the momentary max LUFS hits -20.7, and this is not at all what I would consider a very dynamic show.

[Brandonx1]

Originally Posted by V5V

Just let the mix be a little "flatter." Your audience will thank you.

I don't understand why anyone would WANT a lot of dynamic range. It's TV, not a feature. Mumbly quiet bits and bursts of loud shouting send the viewer diving for the volume control, either uttering the dreaded "Whadhesay?" complaint or cursing the kid-waking, neighbour-annoying, senses-shocking volume.

There may also actually be valid technical reasons for the hard cap on level, and exceeding it might just make your louder bit duck or break up, both of which are going to have a much more deleterious affect on your product than just keeping the maximum level in check in the first place.

For me, flat mixes with no dynamics sound bad on any medium. The entire reason for 1770 spec is so we can have dynamics.

[lucienpalmer]

Originally Posted by Brandonx1

For me, flat mixes with no dynamics sound bad on any medium. The entire reason for 1770 spec is so we can have dynamics.

Exactly. And it does allow for decent dynamics that still work well for playback in a television. Television isn't radio. No need to squash the mix.

The fact is, you'll never stop people from grabbing the remote and changing the volume up and down. Every TV is different, every room is different, and everyone's ears are different. I can watch TV and think it sounds perfectly fine, and my wife is constantly saying, "what did they say?". There is no silver bullet for the perfect spec, so we might as well just mix it so it sounds good and maintain a consistent loudness to anchor it.

[8dB.co.uk]

Discovery used to use LEQ(a) and Dial Norm, so this is a definite advance.