No Midi data transfer from PT back to Midi device

[figment]

if anybody knows how to fix the following issue, it would be extremely appreciated, and I would be able to embark on my project. I believe this is the final barricade keeping me from getting started at least.

It has to do with MIDI. I have a Motif ES88. I connect via two midi cables running in-out, and out-in with my digi 002. I uploaded the .midnam file for the Motif ES, and patched the .middev file to enable the Motif ES as a selectable model in the "MIDI Studio Setup" window. Within that same window, I have the I/O's set to the following settings:
I: Digi 002 Port 1
O: Digi 002 Port 1 [Emulated]

I have the Motif ES enabled in the 'Input Devices' window, and 'MIDI Thru' enabled, under the MIDI menu.

Concerning the Midi Track; I have the I/O settings as follows:
I: Motif ES > All
O: Motif ES > CH 1

I also have an Aux track set up to receive signal from "Mic/Line 1-2" and have two 1/4" cables running from the Motif's audio outputs straight to the line inputs of track 1-2 of the digi 002. I have the outputs of that track set to "analog 1-2"

I have a master track, set up to ouput to the 'main out (analog 1-2)' also, but that is the only choice available.

I can monitor sound coming from the keyboard. I can also see visual confirmation of level fluctuation for the aux and master track. Also for the Midi track, when it is record-armed.

I can record midi data to the midi track, and I can also see the notes displayed in the edit window.

However, when it comes time to playback the recorded data, I get no sound. I see level fluctuations when Pro Tools encounters the notes, but no sound.

It sounds like MIDI data is not being sent back to the Motif, in order to trigger the internal tone generator. I believe the keyboard would then route the tones back to the digi 002 via the 1/4" cables, and then go to the speakers. The Yamaha technician said I would have to hook the speakers straight to the Motif, but that's stupid. How the hell would I monitor any audio tracks in any future projects? Why wouldn't the motif behave the same way that it would when I'm just playing the darn thing and route the tones over the 1/4" cables. Isn't that what the aux track is for?

Anyways, I know that is not why I'm not being able to monitor the playback of the recorded midi data. The reason I know that, is because I hooked my headphones up to the phones output jack of the motif and heard no sound during playback of recorded midi data that Pro Tools should be sending to the Motif. This would override whether or not I had the speakers hooked up to the motif, or to protools. I verified with Yamaha tech support that the other connections are correct and that the Motif is in the proper mode with the appropriate settings. No sound. I can hit a note on the keyboard, and hear it play in the speakers AND the headphones.

Another troubleshooting step I did, was to connect a single MIDI cable from the Motif's Midi Out to the Motif's Midi In. I turned Local control off. (Correct me if i'm wrong here, but wouldn't that prevent it from just triggering the tone generator when I hit a key. Rather, wouldn't that just send the midi data from the out port and trigger the tone generator when it received the midi data back into the "midi in" port?) Anyways, with local control off, I could play a note, and hear sound in the headphones, which tells me that the Motif can not only send MIDI data, but it can also receive it, and recognize it.

About Local Control...I saw somewhere in digidesign documentation that it would be a good idea to have local control turned off, if PT had "MIDI Thru" turned ON. Would this strengthen my theory that the tone generator would only be triggered by receiving MIDI data? I tried that. I turned Local off, and still heard no playback of recorded midi data. Again, strengthening my theory that PT is not transmitting the data back. While I still had local off, I noticed that I would no longer hear anything if I just played a note on the keyboard. Which would again make sense, the more I think about it. If PT was transmitting the information back to the motif, then when I played a note on the motif, it would just send the midi data to PT, which would just send it right back to the motif. At that point, the tone generator would be triggered. This would solve allow me to hear the playback of the recorded data, as well as hear sound from just playing a note. Is this asumption correct? If so, then it still leaves me with the issue of not getting the midi data from PT to the Motif.

All fingers point to Pro Tools. There has to be some kind of setting in pro tools that is keeping it from sending the Midi Information back to the Motif, and tell it what notes to play.
Also , the Yamaha Technician let me in on a little secret, when I asked him why I can't run the Motif's voice editing software with pro tools, as a plug-in. He informed me that it's because I'm running Pro Tools. He then elaborated, informing me that Pro Tools is a 'closed program' and is the ONLY major sequencing software that WILL NOT allow Yamaha to write software with the ability to run inside protools. This would make life A LOT easier, being that you can never really see what the heck is going on with the display screens of these fancy keyboards. I thought that kinda sucked, but I doubt it is keeping me from playing back midi data.

Anyways, if anyone knows of a fix for this MIDI OUT from Pro Tools issue, please let me know.

[Captain_Pants]

Another troubleshooting step I did, was to connect a single MIDI cable from the Motif's Midi Out to the Motif's Midi In. I turned Local control off. (Correct me if i'm wrong here, but wouldn't that prevent it from just triggering the tone generator when I hit a key. Rather, wouldn't that just send the midi data from the out port and trigger the tone generator when it received the midi data back into the "midi in" port?) Anyways, with local control off, I could play a note, and hear sound in the headphones, which tells me that the Motif can not only send MIDI data, but it can also receive it, and

Yes, you should be doing all your recording with Local Control Off. You want the system to take it all data, and play it out via the midi device. The reason for local control OFF, is when you have more than one synth hooked up, you want to be able to play one to record the sounds off the other.

So, it works as should with Local Off? The reason it wont play the MIDI data with Local ON, is that when you hit "Playback" on the PC, the notes are getting sent to the Motif, but are stopping short of playing anything because it is set to "Local On".

[figment]

Captain Pants,

I wrote a reply to your message, but I guess it didn't take.

Thanks for clearing up the local control issue. It's all starting to come back, haha. Anyways, I indeed have local turned off. Now, that disables the sound coming from the Motif, when I just hit a key. Normally, it should be sending midi data to the digi 002, instead of triggering the tone generator. The tone generator, should only be triggered, when the Motif receives the midi data back--which it is not.

Before, I mentioned the test I did on the motif, where I hooked up a single midi cable from the midi out of the motif to the midi in of the motif. I had local off, and was still able to hear sound through the headphones I had hooked up to the motif. This told me that the motif could not only send midi data, but could also receive it, and recognize it. I did this over the phone with a yamaha technician, who verified that all other settings on the motif were correct, concerning mode, etc.

I sent a tech request form to digidesign, and they responded (4 days later, haha) telling me that i should perform the same test on the digi 002, and let them know what I found. Here's what i did.

In MSS I have the input set to "digi 002 Port 1" and the output set to "digi 002 Port 1 [Emulated]". (All send and receive channels are highlighted). Other output options in the MSS are as follows:
-Digi 002 Port 1 [Emulated]
-Digi 002 Port 2 [Emulated]
-SB Audigy MIDI IO 2 [A800] [Emulated]
-SB Audigy MIDI IO [A800] [Emulated]

I connected a single MIDI cable from "MIDI Out 1" of the digi 002 back into the "MIDI In" of the digi 002. I set up a new midi track, and made the following settings:

"MIDI Track 1" (The original MIDI track with recoreded data)
Input: Motif ES > All channels
Ouput: Motif ES > Channel 1

"MIDI Track 2" (The new MIDI track)
Input: Motif ES > Channel 1

(When I click the "INPUT" button [on either track], it pulls up two choices: "All" or "Motif ES". I'm assuming it is because it is the only instrument enabled in the "input devices" window. When I click on the Motif ES, it gives me a list of 16 channels).

(When I click the "OUTPUT" button [on either track], it pulls up 3 choices: "None", "Motif ES", or "Predefined."I think "none" and "Motif ES" speak for themselves, but "Predefined" i'm a little confused about. Maybe you would be so kind as to elaborate there.

Anyways, If I click on "predefined", it pulls up a list of choices:
-SB Audigy DirectMusic Synth
-Digi 002 Port 2 [Emulated]
-Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth [Emulated]
-Microsoft MIDI Mapper [Emulated]
-SB Audigy MIDI IO 2 [A800] [Emulated]
-SB Audigy MIDI IO [A800] [Emulated]
-SB Audigy SW Synth [A800] [Emulated]
-SB Audigy Synth A [A800] [Emulated]
-SB Audigy Synth B [A800] [Emulated]

What does [Emulated] mean, anyways? I guess I may have forgotten that vaguely familiar term...

Anyways, I record-armed "MIDI Track 2", and hit record and play in the transport window...No data was recorded.

This tells me that the digi 002 is not sending midi data. I'm really hoping that it is because of some stupid setting. I sent the test results back to digidesign tech support. I'll just let everybody know that it will really cook my chicken, if they come back and tell me that I need to upgrade. I already dumped another grand on my computer, after they told me i needed a new motherboard and chipset. I'm hoping somebody else knows of a fix for this.

thanks for the help.

[Captain_Pants]

Hmm.. Much more important is getting data recorded onto PT first, then working out the audio sound missing later.

What I want you to try is this:

Set up the MOtif to Local-Off.

Plug a cable from the Motif OUT to the Digi MIDI 1 In

In PT, Create a new Midi TRack. Set the Input to "Digi 002 Midi 1 - ALL"

Arm the track, hit record, then play 20 seconds of random notes on teh Motif.

Stop playback, and go back to PT and see if any little blocks of data are on there.

Let me know how that goes.

Sorry for the late response/ busy weekend.

Best of luck!
=-Ben

[figment]

Recording "to" protools doesn't seem to be a problem. At least for ONE track. The first midi track that has recorded midi data on it, came from me doing the exact thing you mentioned. I just recorded a small bit of random notes, just to see if it would record, and it did. The little note blocks are displayed, and the whole bit. When I play back, I see level fluctuation on the midi track, but no sound.

So, the problem seems to be PT sending the data recorded 'from' the motif... 'back' to the motif, to trigger the tone generator, and send the sound wave back to the aux track, via the 1/4" inputs I have running into analog 1-2 (the same channels that were giving me sound, when I'd play a note on the motif, while local control was 'on'.

I probably won't hear from digidesign on that issue for another 3 days, so let me know if you see a problem...

thanks again for all of your help.

[Captain_Pants]

Alright, this is good so far. Now, with another cable, lets plug the MIDI Out to the Motif In.

I seem to remember some pictures online where the 002/002r has two MIDI outs. Are you plugging into the correct Midi Out?

Everything sounds like it 'should' be working. I wish I had more experience with the Motif and the 002 systems, but i dont.... So, ill do my best to help, and i hope some more people come in to chime about this...

[figment]

Captain Pants,

Thank you for your help with this issue. As I mentioned before, I have also been working with digidesign tech support on this issue. They sent me an email, requesting that I uninstall the MIDI USB drivers for the yamaha motif ES, and use a registry cleaner to search for, and clean up the entries pertaining to the following files: "ymidusb.sys", "xgusb.cpl" and "xgusb.inf". They also wanted me to completely uninstall Pro Tools and restart it. If that didn't work, they wanted me to back up my hard drive, wipe it, and reinstall the OS and all my software...Yikes...that was not the solution I was looking for, but I figured I would go ahead and at least give the first method a shot. It was a bitch, but I did it...and it fixed the problem. I was clever enough to save copies of the .midnam file for the patch names of the motif es, and .middev file so PT could recognize the Motif ES as a model for Yamaha.

After all was said and done, I loaded up the same session I've been working on, and hit play. SHAZAM! Playback of midi data was sent back to the motif, which then triggered the tone generator, and sent the audio back to the aux track via 1/4" cables hooked into the line inputs of channels 1 and 2 of the digi002.

I still have a few questions, though. Maybe you would have a better idea of these concepts...

1. Will the system freak out if I reinstall the drivers for the Yamaha? I still would like to use the voice editing software that came with the instrument, to tweak and layer voices for performance purposes. (You know how those LED screens are). Since digidesign chooses not to allow the use of Yamaha software as a plug in…where does that leave ANYBODY who has a motif? This would have been nice to know BEFORE I bought the motif. If I knew I was going to run into this many problems, I would have either purchased a Triton, or taken the advice of my peers by going with Cubase or Logic. I would assume that the only way to use the voice editing software to control the Motif, would be through a USB connection. I would have to reinstall the drivers in order to get the computer to even recognize the motif. If I reinstalled the drivers, and I lost midi output from the 002 again, I could theoretically just uninstall the drivers again, right? Or would I have to reinstall pro tools again, too? Forgive me, but I’m just really having a hard time grasping why on God’s green earth, the digi 002 would not send midi data, if there are yamaha keyboard drivers installed on the host computer.

2. I pasted the .midnam and .middev files back into their appropriate locations. However, I am not sure why changing a patch name on the midi track in the edit window, would not control the display of the yamaha. In other words, let’s say that I had “chimes” tuned in on the motif, and recorded “chimes” midi data into protools. By changing the patch name in PT, the display on the motif still reads “chimes”. Does this have to do with the drivers? That wouldn’t make sense. I haven't farted around with the whole thing 'too' much, but I was somehow thinking it would operate a little differently.

I will now paste the step-by-step process of how I got rid of this problem, just in case anybody having this same issue runs across this thread. Feel free to ignore the rest of this, as I know you were just trying to help, and are probably not interested in the details of how the problem was actually solved. Thanks again, captain pants, for helping me muscle through this.

"What was the problem?"

In a nutshell, I am running XP Pro on a Custom built computer with 2GB of DDR Ram, and an AMD dual core 4400+ processor and nVIDIA nFORCE 4 chipset. I have a digi002 running Pro Tools LE 6.7r2. The problem was that I was able to record midi data from my Motif ES88, into pro tools, but Pro Tools was not sending the midi data back into the Motif to trigger the tone generator. I did a few tests to make sure that it was pro tools not sending the data, instead of the Motif not receiving it. For a more comprehensive look at what the problem actually was, and what it entailed, read through the previous entries in this thread. If you would just like to know how the problem was solved, read on...

"How was it fixed?"

First, I created a system restor point. (Start > Programs > Accessories > System Tools > System Restore)

Reg cleaner was downloaded, and installed.

Here's the link: http://worldstart.com/weekly-downloa...cleaner4.3.htm

(Maybe others will have better results, but Every time I use it, the program won’t let my operating system reboot. XP shuts down just fine if I don’t use it, but if I do…even if I shut reg cleaner down long before I reboot, it still wants to keep putting up a window suggesting that windows is trying to force it to close. The little progress bar gets all the way to the end, and then tells me that it is not responding. I click on 'end now', and the window closes, only to reopen again a few seconds later. I have to manually turn the computer off, which I’m not too happy about. Oh, well. I guess I’ll try to reinstall it later. I’m just letting you know for future reference, though. Can't complain about free software ).

Anyways, when I first started it up, I did a routine scan for unnecessary entries, and removed them. This included a cleanup of OLE’s and Orphan files. This went without any issues.

I Looked into the motif es installation manual .pdf file. On page 11 it said to have the computer properly recognize the motif, and THEN go into hardware manager, (Start > Control Panel > System > Hardware > Device Manager), and uninstall the driver under “sound, video and game controllers”, which I did. Then, I manually located the file named: “ymidusb.sys” and deleted it, as well as the file named: “xgusb.cpl”. I was unable to find the .inf file. I reopened the registry editor through reg cleaner, and searched for these items (Edit > Find). I found ‘ymidusb.sys’ and deleted the entry. I also found ‘xgusb.inf’ and deleted it. I was unable to find the ‘xgusb.cpl’ file…strange. Now, the “MIDI USB Driver” icon in the control panel is gone, which tells me that the drivers have been successfully uninstalled.

I also used the registry cleaner to uninstall ProTools LE 6.7r2. Before I deleted it, I made a backup of the .middev file, .midnam file, and the session I’ve been working on. (This would only be necessary, if you have altered the .middev file, to reflect the Motif ES as a Yamaha Model in your 'MIDI Studio Setup Window' and you have downloaded the .midnam file for the Motif ES from digicake.com.

Here is a link. http://www.digicake.com/midnam/

Download the appropriate midnam file, and open the readme file. It will give you easy to follow instructions, and comes with a patch for you to edit the .middev file. If anybody has a problem with this, just reply to this post, and I should get the message.

Anyways, after the Pro Tools uninstallation, I was prompted to reboot. So, I did.

After Reboot, I found and deleted both digidesign folders located in Program files, as well as common files. I emptied the recycle bin, and rebooted again, just to start off fresh for the installation of Pro Tools.

I installed Pro Tools, and entered the code to unlock it. I opened up the session I have been trying to get going. I pressed play, and SHAZAM! I suddenly heard the playback of recorded midi data coming from my system. (It was a horrible spasm of notes, but I didn’t care). I hope this helps anybody that has this problem.

[Captain_Pants]

Captain Pants,

...I still have a few questions, though. Maybe you would have a better idea of these concepts...

1. Will the system freak out if I reinstall the drivers for the Yamaha? I still would like to use the voice editing software that came with the instrument, to tweak and layer voices for performance purposes.

Who really knows. Ive had some really good luck with USB Midi(Roland JV-2080, MOTU 8x8 Midi Interface), and some really bad luck (Midiman 4x4). The first two always work, the Midiman did sporadically, so i sold it. Im guessing your mileage will vary. Its unfortunate that it works like that, but some things just arent compatible, or interfere with the operation of other things(much like I imagine my Midi4x4 did). It could also be your install order. On my laptop, I had to install Itunes first before I could install my Mbox2, or it just plain wouldnt work. who knows!?!

2. I pasted the .midnam and .middev files back into their appropriate locations. However, I am not sure why changing a patch name on the midi track in the edit window, would not control the display of the yamaha. In other words, let’s say that I had “chimes” tuned in on the motif, and recorded “chimes” midi data into protools...

Unfortunately, the Digi001 was too late to utilize the .midnam files that were used in PT6.9+... So, I have no experience with that stuff...

Good luck though, im glad you got it working! have fun and post some tunes when you have some time!

=-c/p

[DigiTechSupt]

1. Will the system freak out if I reinstall the drivers for the Yamaha?

Yes - those particular Yamaha MIDI drivers completely conflict with Pro Tools MIDI drivers.

2. I pasted the .midnam and .middev files back into their appropriate locations. However, I am not sure why changing a patch name on the midi track in the edit window, would not control the display of the yamaha. In other words, let’s say that I had “chimes” tuned in on the motif, and recorded “chimes” midi data into protools. By changing the patch name in PT, the display on the motif still reads “chimes”. Does this have to do with the drivers? That wouldn’t make sense. I haven't farted around with the whole thing 'too' much, but I was somehow thinking it would operate a little differently.

What MIDI channel are you sending the patch change to? Is that particular MIDI channel the one being displayed on the Motif? My guess is that you're changing the patch for a different MIDI channel than the one being displayed.