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  #1  
Old 10-04-2022, 10:44 PM
ZorkNation ZorkNation is offline
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Default compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

NOTE: I don't know why my replies have not shown up yet. Waiting on the admins, I guess.

Hi Pro Tools Surround Output Experts,

My mobo is an Asus Z170 with Realtek High Definition Audio over optical TOSLink output. I have Sony Digital Surround DP-RF6500 headphones hooked up to the Realtek optical TOSLink output. When I play a video game or movie, it is able to send compressed DTS or Dolby Digital to the headphone base, which has indicator lights for the type of signal it receives. (DTS, Dolby Digital, or Dolby PLIIx). If it only receives L/R stereo, the indicators don't light up, but I still hear plain stereo. I was pretty sure this newer model actually has multiple transducers in each ear. Whether that, or if it functions through binaural sound field reproduction, it requires a compressed DTS, Dolby Digital, or PLIIx signal over the optical TOSLink cable. I know the driver is capable of producing it from software, since games worked. The test works. (See attached screenshots.)

I'm editing post sound on a film. Pro Tools requires an ASIO driver for video playback. (Incidentally... why?)

I found some ancient RealTek ASIO driver in a .cab file from the Microsoft driver archive. There is no ASIO software component in device manager to update the driver from like most of the instructions said. I tried "manual install" but nothing seemed to work. Some web page suggested using "Driver Easy" to install them but I don't want to pay $39 for something that potentially won't work. (Why the heck isn't there an easy way to install a .cab file?)

RealTek doesn't provide any audio drivers or utilities from their web site or Windows Store anymore, only through Windows Update. The audio drivers available on the Asus Z170 support page were also out of date and borkened the system so I couldn't set the audio control to DTS output at all. I had to reformat the system so I could reinstall the ones from Windows Update. It couldn't detect them again after manually installing the other ones even though they are newer. I don't think the ones from the Asus support page contained an ASIO driver.

I had to install ASIO4ALL to get video playback to work. Now I can't seem to switch the playback device back to the Windows Audio Device to see if that might work, even in a session with no video track. Regardless, I need to edit with video playback, so I guess ASIO4ALL is my only option. I installed the latest ("final") version of the driver.

When I set up a new output path, I can see six channel analog, but only 2 channels for S/PDIF. (The Realtek on the mobo has 3 stereo mini outputs for 6-channel analog next to the optical TOSLink output jack.) If I set up the stereo output, and direct my stereo mixdown bus to it, I can hear stereo in the headphones.

There doesn't seem to be any way to route 5.1 to that optical TOSLink output. Is that a limitation of the ASIO4ALL driver? Is there another output device to encode Dolby Digital, PLIIx, or DTS and send it out through optical? I know it can work in theory because video games can do it.

Any suggestions for getting these headphones to work would be great. I only paid $200 for the $1000 set from some schmo on Craigslist, but they are really awesome. I do have a set of 5.1 speakers that I can hook up to get the work done, but I'd like to be able to work on headphones.

Thanks so much for your input.
Mark
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Annotation 2022-10-04 215805.jpg (28.6 KB, 0 views)
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File Type: jpg Annotation 2022-10-04 222332.jpg (28.7 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by ZorkNation; 10-05-2022 at 09:50 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2022, 11:26 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

I am not a movie/video person but...

You have TOSLINK optical output and want to run a surround sound format on that. You can't do that with S/PDIF over TOSLINK... that's stereo only and the only thing Pro Tools will directly output to that interface.

TOSLINK can support old multichannel formats, but you need an encoder and they are licensed hardware and/or software. An popular example for Dolby Pro Logic encoding is Neyrinck soundcode https://neyrinck.com/soundcode/soundcode-ltrt-tools/

Pro Tools does not require ASIO just to work with video, Pro Tools requires ASIO for *any* audio work on Windows, well it claims to work with WASAPI audio but really is not reliable. Why? Because Windows audio is an awful mess and ASIO is the best out there. ASIO4ALL is a flakey wrapper that may or may not work. You should have planned on getting a proper ASIO interface (with native ASIO driver provided by the interface vendor) to use with Pro Tools. And while mixing supporting you really want multiple monitors set up properly for surround sound. Unless you are targeting something that is going to be used on specific surround capable headphones I think you are wasting your time both trying to use ASIO4ALL and mixing surround on those headphones.

You say you've got monitors... but if they are only cheap PC surround speakers they may not work great... but almost certainly better than headphones if you take a little care with setup. You can try running them off the PC audio analog outputs with ASIO4ALL, but at that point you are so far away from doing stuff correctly who knows if it will work well.

If setting up a mix room to deliver professional product you also may need to pay attention to getting a subwoofer, monitor controller,. and performing level calibrations. That setup will cost.

So if doing 5.1 at a minimum you need an ASIO capable interface with 6 line outputs or more (or digital outputs if driving digital monitors, but they are expensive so I'll assume not). Low cost PC surround monitors will not get you to decent enough SPL levels, but will be better than headphones. There are lots of interfaces out there from Focusright, Presonus, UAD, RME, etc. but these will be in the few $k range to get those outputs.

The next challenge is video-audio sync, an area where folks spend lots of money on Pro Tools Ultimate and Digilink based systems to get sub frame accurate sync. Likewise if you are working from field recorders you may want the field recorder workflow in Pro Tools Ultimate. Have you actually imported any of the content and done any editing yet? Seen if what you can deliver will meet director’s/producer's expectations? They happy with the sync delivered? How is final delivery done for this project? For DVD? BlueRay? Streaming service? Do you know what all the specs for that you need to meet and the delivery format?

If you are doing this as a hobby/for free I would probably give up on the surround and mix as stereo, and hopefully get Stereo monitors set up. Focus on doing simple well. Lots and lots of really hard stuff to get done even with that, most of which you won't have any idea of until getting started.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 10-05-2022 at 04:35 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2022, 09:40 AM
smurfyou smurfyou is offline
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Default Re: compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

Yes I'm sorry to say you're going about this the wrong way.

Darryl went into detail but basically no you can't do what you're trying to. Your headphones are designed as a consumer end-use product.

You'd need to get a proper interface with 6+ outs with monitors to match. There are virtualization plugins to emulate surround monitoring on headphones but if you aren't experienced mixing in surround it's not helpful. You are staring down a very deep rabbit hole.
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  #4  
Old 10-05-2022, 10:12 AM
ZorkNation ZorkNation is offline
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Default Re: compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Try to use the proper names for things. I am not a movie/video person but...

You have TOSLINK optical output and want to run a surround sound format on that. You can't do that with S/PDIF over TOSLINK... that's stereo only and the only thing Pro Tools will directly output to that interface.
Thanks, I'm glad you were able to understand what I meant. I clarified in the post that I mean the TOSLink cable. I guess I was asking how do I get Pro Tools to use some protocol other than S/PDIF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
TOSLINK can support old multichannel formats, but you need an encoder and they are licensed hardware and/or software. An popular example for Dolby Pro Logic encoding is Neyrinck soundcode https://neyrinck.com/soundcode/soundcode-ltrt-tools/
Yes, something like that. Good God, $4,000??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Pro Tools does not require ASIO just to worth with video, Pro Tools requires ASIO for *any* audio work on Windows, well it claims to work with WASAPI audio but really is not reliable. Why? Because Windows audio is an awful mess and ASIO is the best out there. ASIO4ALL is a flakey wrapper that may or may not work. You should have planned on getting a proper ASIO interface (with native ASIO driver provided by the interface vendor) to use with Pro Tools. And while mixing supporting you really want multiple monitors set up properly for surround sound. Unless you are targeting something that is going to be used on specific surround capable headphones I think you are wasting your time both trying to use ASIO4ALL and mixing surround on those headphones.

You say you've got monitors... but if they are only cheap PC surround speakers they may not work great... but almost certainly better than headphones if you take a little care with setup. You can try running them off the PC audio analog outputs with ASIO4ALL, but at that point you are so far away from doing stuff correctly who knows if it will work well.

If setting up a mix room to deliver professional product you also may need to pay attention to getting a subwoofer, monitor controller,. and performing level calibrations. That setup will cost.

So if doing 5.1 at a minimum you need an ASIO capable interface with 6 line outputs or more (or digital outputs if driving digital monitors, but they are expensive so I'll assume not). Low cost PC surround monitors will not get you to decent enough SPL levels, but will be better than headphones. There are lots of interfaces out there from Focusright, Presonus, UAD, RME, etc. but these will be in the few $k range to get those outputs.
I already mixed the first edit of the video actually. I used my Macbook Pro with my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 to feed the amp and speakers. Yeah, they're only consumer level speakers, I "hear" you. It's just a student short film. I developed a pretty good bus array to bounce 5.1 and mixed-down stereo stem files for DX, FX, MX, and ambiance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
The next challenge is video-audio sync, an area where folks spend lots of money on Pro Tools Ultimate and Digilink based systems to get sub frame accurate sync.
That isn't just a matter of setting the timeline scale to milliseconds instead of frames? That seemed to work. I can align the sound clips to sub-frame time points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Likewise if you are working from field recorders you may want the field recorder workflow in Pro Tools Ultimate. Have you actually imported any of the content and done any editing yet? Seen if what you can deliver will meet producer's expectations? Producer happy with the sync delivered? How is final deliver done for the? DVD? BlueRay? Streaming service? Do you know what all the specs for that you need to meet and the delivery format?

If you are doing this as a hobby/for free I would probably give up on the surround and mix as stereo, and hopefully get Stereo monitors set up. Focus on doing simple well. Lots and lots of really hard stuff to get done even with that, most of which you won't have any idea of until getting started.
Yeah I should have clarified that I've done all that already. I mix down to LUFS specs for YouTube, and produce the stem files just as an exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Yes I'm sorry to say you're going about this the wrong way.

Darryl went into detail but basically no you can't do what you're trying to. Your headphones are designed as a consumer end-use product.

You'd need to get a proper interface with 6+ outs with monitors to match. There are virtualization plugins to emulate surround monitoring on headphones but if you aren't experienced mixing in surround it's not helpful. You are staring down a very deep rabbit hole.
For sure it's a rabbit hole. Yeah I've already mixed the first pass with 6 outs. I just wanted to figure out if I could use these headphones because they're cool, to do a quick and dirty mix and then fine-tune it later with the speakers. But $4,000 for SoundCode? Holy crap.

RDR2 output the correct compressed surround signal and it didn't cost $4,000. Why isn't there something like that available?

Hrmm... I wonder if there is a plugin for Unreal 5 that would set up an audio device that does this, which could be accessed from Pro Tools....
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  #5  
Old 10-05-2022, 10:13 AM
ZorkNation ZorkNation is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 10
Default Re: compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Try to use the proper names for things. I am not a movie/video person but...

You have TOSLINK optical output and want to run a surround sound format on that. You can't do that with S/PDIF over TOSLINK... that's stereo only and the only thing Pro Tools will directly output to that interface.
Thanks, I'm glad you were able to understand what I meant. I clarified in the post that I mean the TOSLink cable. I guess I was asking how do I get Pro Tools to use some protocol other than S/PDIF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
TOSLINK can support old multichannel formats, but you need an encoder and they are licensed hardware and/or software. An popular example for Dolby Pro Logic encoding is Neyrinck soundcode https://neyrinck.com/soundcode/soundcode-ltrt-tools/
Yes, something like that. Good God, $4,000??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Pro Tools does not require ASIO just to worth with video, Pro Tools requires ASIO for *any* audio work on Windows, well it claims to work with WASAPI audio but really is not reliable. Why? Because Windows audio is an awful mess and ASIO is the best out there. ASIO4ALL is a flakey wrapper that may or may not work. You should have planned on getting a proper ASIO interface (with native ASIO driver provided by the interface vendor) to use with Pro Tools. And while mixing supporting you really want multiple monitors set up properly for surround sound. Unless you are targeting something that is going to be used on specific surround capable headphones I think you are wasting your time both trying to use ASIO4ALL and mixing surround on those headphones.

You say you've got monitors... but if they are only cheap PC surround speakers they may not work great... but almost certainly better than headphones if you take a little care with setup. You can try running them off the PC audio analog outputs with ASIO4ALL, but at that point you are so far away from doing stuff correctly who knows if it will work well.

If setting up a mix room to deliver professional product you also may need to pay attention to getting a subwoofer, monitor controller,. and performing level calibrations. That setup will cost.

So if doing 5.1 at a minimum you need an ASIO capable interface with 6 line outputs or more (or digital outputs if driving digital monitors, but they are expensive so I'll assume not). Low cost PC surround monitors will not get you to decent enough SPL levels, but will be better than headphones. There are lots of interfaces out there from Focusright, Presonus, UAD, RME, etc. but these will be in the few $k range to get those outputs.
I already mixed the first edit of the video actually. I used my Macbook Pro with my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 to feed the amp and speakers. Yeah, they're only consumer level speakers, I "hear" you. It's just a student short film. I developed a pretty good bus array to bounce 5.1 and mixed-down stereo stem files for DX, FX, MX, and ambiance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
The next challenge is video-audio sync, an area where folks spend lots of money on Pro Tools Ultimate and Digilink based systems to get sub frame accurate sync.
That isn't just a matter of setting the timeline scale to milliseconds instead of frames? That seemed to work. I can align the sound clips to sub-frame time points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm View Post
Likewise if you are working from field recorders you may want the field recorder workflow in Pro Tools Ultimate. Have you actually imported any of the content and done any editing yet? Seen if what you can deliver will meet producer's expectations? Producer happy with the sync delivered? How is final deliver done for the? DVD? BlueRay? Streaming service? Do you know what all the specs for that you need to meet and the delivery format?

If you are doing this as a hobby/for free I would probably give up on the surround and mix as stereo, and hopefully get Stereo monitors set up. Focus on doing simple well. Lots and lots of really hard stuff to get done even with that, most of which you won't have any idea of until getting started.
Yeah I should have clarified that I've done all that already. I mix down to LUFS specs for YouTube, and produce the stem files just as an exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Yes I'm sorry to say you're going about this the wrong way.

Darryl went into detail but basically no you can't do what you're trying to. Your headphones are designed as a consumer end-use product.

You'd need to get a proper interface with 6+ outs with monitors to match. There are virtualization plugins to emulate surround monitoring on headphones but if you aren't experienced mixing in surround it's not helpful. You are staring down a very deep rabbit hole.
For sure it's a rabbit hole. Yeah I've already mixed the first pass with 6 outs. I just wanted to figure out if I could use these headphones because they're cool, to do a quick and dirty mix and then fine-tune it later with the speakers. But $4,000 for SoundCode? Holy crap.

RDR2 output the correct compressed surround signal and it didn't cost $4,000. Why isn't there something like that available?

Hrmm... I wonder if there is a plugin for Unreal 5 that would set up an audio device that does this, which could be accessed from Pro Tools....
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  #6  
Old 10-05-2022, 11:39 AM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

Also hopefully it's clear what your role is in the production, even if it's a bunch of friends shooting a first movie.

a.g. Are you only adding background music? Doing voice editing? Special effects? If voice who is responsible for on-location recording and are they going to deliver stuff to you that is usable? The sound recorder got lavelier radio mics on the talent and/or shotgun mics on poles? What are they recording that to? A field recorder? Camera internal sound? (can you keep camera internal sound or one of it's tracks as an on-camera/scene audio to help keep track of stuff?). They know how to use the gear? Are you responsible for ADR?

How are they doing timecode alignment? Timecode sync boxes are pretty low cost nowadays. You can slide stuff around without time code but it quickly becomes a lot of work. How are scenes/shots cataloged and delivered to the video editor and then to you. How do you get all the audio assets that may have been recorded with a scene?

As soon as possible try some tests out with all this to see how it might work and if the results are acceptable to everybody.
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  #7  
Old 10-05-2022, 03:24 PM
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EGS EGS is offline
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Default Re: compress dolby or dts output over optical cable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZorkNation View Post
... RealTek doesn't provide any audio drivers ...
Go to the MB manufacturer site, look up your exact MB model, and get the latest Realtek driver. (This is NOT a fix, however, for the Pro Tools surround issue. Others already answered that above.)
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