Re-learning to mix ITB?

[peppertree]

1) There is no problem at all using the master fader to keep your summed levels below clipping. They programmed the headroom and you paid for it...use it.

2) There is no problem at all if some of your tracks are printed hot, if you preferred the tone of running that signal path hot. You can use a trim plugin or just pull down a fader to blend it in with everything else.

3) To understand how the gain structure and headroom of your DAW works, use a sinewave signal generator (I prefer around 400 HZ for comfort) and listen or watch on a RTA as it distorts in various places.

You'll learn that HD has far more miserable headroom constrictions than LE does, but you can use workarounds for HD to make your life tolerable.

4) The SSL G comp is very handy to mix through, and is something many mastering engineers have used too. The definition of what is "mixing" and what is "mastering" for me is a matter of schedule...if you apply it after your mix is more or less done, it's mastering.

Many people these days mix through a limiter, which infuriates mastering engineers because it makes it harder for them to impress you with level, and ties their hands to some degree. After doing so for a while I no longer do that myself, but it is a legitimate technique, and also gives you hindsight as to what limiting is going to do to your mix (e.g. bring up noise and reverb, etc.). So I usually throw one on momentarily just to see and to hand to a client.

5) Mastering engineers are the most preachy people in music, but most of them are mastering engineers not by choice but because they couldn't cut it (anymore?) as producer/engineers which is the fun work. (Not true of course for the top guys, but the top guys aren't preachy either.) View their demagoguery with skepticism; you don't tell them how to do their jobs and you don't need to listen to them when they try to tell you.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by WernerF

I find all of this to be totally counter intuitive and mechanical. It puts engineering first and artful listening second.

Funny, cuz that's how it's been done since the 60's. Ever have a chance to listen to the original master 4 and 8 tracks from Led Zepplin, The Beatles, Hendrix, etc? When you set the faders to 0 on the console you get THE MIX that is on the record minus reverb and delay.

Artful listening? Are you kidding me? what does that even mean?

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Thanks for this - just out of interest what style of music are you mastering there?

I was thinking of full in your face pop which is limited hard, do these producers still mix to start with at very low levels?

Also i learnt something new there, didnt know you could have the master fader on its side big and fat like that!

Here's a few examples I've done (recorded/mixed/produced). All of these were mastered by Bob Vosgien at Capitol Mastering, except for the first two which were mastered by Gavin Lurssen at Lurssen Mastering. These were done following my "counter intuitive and mechanical" method of making it sound good and getting the correct levels (i.e. lower levels) on the way in, instead of trying to fix/adjust everything in the mix... The mixes I deliver to mastering are not loud, or slammed, or already somewhat mastered, etc... They have an average level that sits around halfway up the Protools meter on the master with peaks jumping up above that. On a few of them I had a compressor across the stereo mix for color, not volume. Judge for yourself.

The Deep (Electronic Rock)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506660

If You Want Me (Power pop)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506665

Ballbuster (Power Pop/punk)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=502736

SK-8 (Power Pop/punk)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=502737

Lonely Years (Power Pop Ballad)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=502738

All Torn Up (Power Rock Anthem)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506919

Pile On (Pop Metal)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506909

Ghost Rider (Heavy Alternative Rock)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506912

Crawling (Heavy Alternative Rock)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=506911

Will You Save Me (Power Pop)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=505072

Heartthrob (Teen Pop)
http://www.megatrax.com/core/songdet...?songid=505078

[WernerF]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

Funny, cuz that's how it's been done since the 60's. Ever have a chance to listen to the original master 4 and 8 tracks from Led Zepplin, The Beatles, Hendrix, etc? When you set the faders to 0 on the console you get THE MIX that is on the record minus reverb and delay.



Artful listening? Are you kidding me? what does that even mean?

1) A lot has changed in the area of ability to control audio since the sixties. Of course those records sound great but you can bet your a__ that the guys who made those records would have expanded their MO if they would have had more options available to them, like not having to pre mix and bounce due to a lack of tracks for one. Sometimes restriction creates great art, sometimes it doesn't.

2) It means, simply, mix with you ears, not a calculator. Do whatever sounds good to you. If you are on your game you will end up with a great mix. There's a lot to be said for the punkrock ethic of DIY. Takes talent to pull it off though.

[digidesigner]

Isn't the idea of mixing with faders near unity for the reason that they have finest resolution in that area? So if you need to use that feature (using a control suface for example) your tracks just cannot be too hot or you will clip your mix bus very easily. In another words if you like hot tracks you need to mix faders down in -20 -30 db region.

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

If you have to pull any fader down by 25dB, then you should check to make sure you didn't record it incorrectly... From a mixing stand point you want to try to keep all your faders around 0dB. Why? Because the faders are logarithmic. Moving the fader down by 1" starting at 0dB will roughly reduce the volume by 5 or 6dB. moving the fader down by an inch starting at -20dB will reduce the volume by about 20dB!!! You have more subtle control over levels the closer you can keep the faders to 0. Mixing with all your faders down around -25dB means every tiny little movement you make on the faders will yield drastic volume changes in those tracks. It is much harder to mix that way.

I don't know what the deal is here. Why not just set your faders to the lovely yellow colour once you've got levels in the ballpark? Then it doesn't matter where the fader was originally, because you're trimming around the 0db, lovely SSL style.

What, Peppertree, you don't have yellow faders in LE? Boo hoo. Boo hoo.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by WernerF

2) It means, simply, mix with you ears, not a calculator.

Who said anything about a calculator? Re-read my post. All I'm saying is, adjust your MIC PREAMPS to get it right on the way in, so you can leave your faders near 0 when mixing, making it easier to make fine adjustments to the mix as you are listening to it.

[mano111]

Originally Posted by peppertree

1) There is no problem at all using the master fader to keep your summed levels below clipping. They programmed the headroom and you paid for it...use it.

2) There is no problem at all if some of your tracks are printed hot, if you preferred the tone of running that signal path hot. You can use a trim plugin or just pull down a fader to blend it in with everything else.

3) To understand how the gain structure and headroom of your DAW works, use a sinewave signal generator (I prefer around 400 HZ for comfort) and listen or watch on a RTA as it distorts in various places.

You'll learn that HD has far more miserable headroom constrictions than LE does, but you can use workarounds for HD to make your life tolerable.

4) The SSL G comp is very handy to mix through, and is something many mastering engineers have used too. The definition of what is "mixing" and what is "mastering" for me is a matter of schedule...if you apply it after your mix is more or less done, it's mastering.

Many people these days mix through a limiter, which infuriates mastering engineers because it makes it harder for them to impress you with level, and ties their hands to some degree. After doing so for a while I no longer do that myself, but it is a legitimate technique, and also gives you hindsight as to what limiting is going to do to your mix (e.g. bring up noise and reverb, etc.). So I usually throw one on momentarily just to see and to hand to a client.

5) Mastering engineers are the most preachy people in music, but most of them are mastering engineers not by choice but because they couldn't cut it (anymore?) as producer/engineers which is the fun work. (Not true of course for the top guys, but the top guys aren't preachy either.) View their demagoguery with skepticism; you don't tell them how to do their jobs and you don't need to listen to them when they try to tell you.

1. You could be clipping the bus or a plugin. master fader (trim) is to save you from clipping the output.

2. Printing (recording) at a non clipping level sounds better in the mix. In a digital system when working at 24 bit you really don't need the entire range so peaks at -10 sound just as good if not better than peaks at -0.5

3. Yes. LE is more forgiving when you make mistakes like track to hot, sent too hot, or mix too hot. Just don't expect your mixes to sound as good when you make these mistakes. If you know how to avoid it your mixes will sound better in LE too.

[WernerF]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

Who said anything about a calculator? Re-read my post. All I'm saying is, adjust your MIC PREAMPS to get it right on the way in, so you can leave your faders near 0 when mixing, making it easier to make fine adjustments to the mix as you are listening to it.

I understand what you're saying and that's what works and makes sense for you, which is great. All I can say though, is that I've mixed a lot of records and have never witnessed a mix that had all the faders at 0. Not once. And I produced a lot of them as well, which means that I tracked them through great mics, pres and my favorite piece of gear, my ADL Fairchild. The gain structure was as it should be and things sounded great going in.

It seems to have worked out OK as the bands, labels, management and subsequent radio listeners and record buyers have not complained. I actually like the way they sound as well.

[peppertree]

Originally Posted by mano111

1. You could be clipping the bus or a plugin. master fader (trim) is to save you from clipping the output.

Nup. Master faders are pre-master inserts. They are intended precisely to solve the problem of summing clipping.

2. Printing (recording) at a non clipping level sounds better in the mix. In a digital system when working at 24 bit you really don't need the entire range so peaks at -10 sound just as good if not better than peaks at -0.5

I didn't suggest printing at clip, although if you like the sound of printing at clip, be my guest. Many mastering engineers (the ones who actually are busy as opposed to sitting and preaching online) print finals at clip.

Listen more than look.

3. Yes. LE is more forgiving when you make mistakes like track to hot, sent too hot, or mix too hot. Just don't expect your mixes to sound as good when you make these mistakes. If you know how to avoid it your mixes will sound better in LE too.

What's a mistake?