Standard levels for VO and Music Beds DVD

[dkstudios]

I have recently taken on a ton of marketing DVD Projects.....I have mixed over 40 albums with no problems.(except artists)......I deal with an arrogant video editor, that completely destroys my mixes in final cut ( he clips everything and assumes it is my fault).....I know I should be the last one to touch this, but he insists on completing the output ...(whatever) basically after I mix down, and duck things (ramp to him) he changes levels again. I argue with him constantly about proper levels....Can someone please advise VO peak level/RMS for DVD, and a general db,dbfs rule for music underneath the vocals..is there one? ie: VO -6. to -3 etc... If you have any type of credentials, please include this, so I can throw it in his face!

[philper]

I have recently taken on a ton of marketing DVD Projects.....I have mixed over 40 albums with no problems.(except artists)......I deal with an arrogant video editor, that completely destroys my mixes in final cut ( he clips everything and assumes it is my fault).....basically after I mix down, and duck things (ramp to him) he changes levels again. I argue with him constantly about proper levels....Can someone please advise VO peak level/RMS for DVD, and a general db,dbfs rule for music underneath the vocals..is there one? ie: VO -6. to -3 etc... If you have any type of credentials, please include this, so I can throw it in his face!

Your problem can't be fixed by an exchange of specs and expected levels. There is no fixed relationship between Vo/DX and music etc levels in a film any more than there is a fixed relationship between the levels of the bass and drums in your music mixes. Those relationships are the art of what is going on here. It sounds to me like your editor is not doing a great job of mixing the shows, and the problems with that may stem from his lack of experience or talent, not having enough time to do a good job, working on an edit system that is oriented to picture work rather than sound (like an Avid or FCP rig) in a room not set up for sound work. The best solution is to have the show mixed by an experienced third party (an audio post person) in a properly set up studio, where there can be discussion between you, the editor, the director and the producer about what the relative levels should be. In other words, the producers of your shows need to take their soundtrack more seriously and allow time and budget to do the work well.

(My credits aren't hugely impressive, but there are a lot of them. See IMDB.)

Philip Perkins

[philper]

I have recently taken on a ton of marketing DVD Projects.....I have mixed over 40 albums with no problems.(except artists)......I deal with an arrogant video editor, that completely destroys my mixes in final cut ( he clips everything and assumes it is my fault).....basically after I mix down, and duck things (ramp to him) he changes levels again. I argue with him constantly about proper levels....Can someone please advise VO peak level/RMS for DVD, and a general db,dbfs rule for music underneath the vocals..is there one? ie: VO -6. to -3 etc... If you have any type of credentials, please include this, so I can throw it in his face!

Your problem can't be fixed by an exchange of specs and expected levels. There is no fixed relationship between Vo/DX and music etc levels in a film any more than there is a fixed relationship between the levels of the bass and drums in your music mixes. Those relationships are the art of what is going on here. It sounds to me like your editor is not doing a great job of mixing the shows, and the problems with that may stem from his lack of experience or talent, not having enough time to do a good job, working on an edit system that is oriented to picture work rather than sound (like an Avid or FCP rig) in a room not set up for sound work. The best solution is to have the show mixed by an experienced third party (an audio post person) in a properly set up studio, where there can be discussion between you, the editor, the director and the producer about what the relative levels should be. In other words, the producers of your shows need to take their soundtrack more seriously and allow time and budget to do the work well.

(My credits aren't hugely impressive, but there are a lot of them. See IMDB.)

Philip Perkins

[dkstudios]

phillip, it is no doubt you are the man......However, they are a low budget 2 man operation......I run an hd2 accel system in a controlled environment (my seperate facility), with apogee conversion in and out.....I am a newbie to film and post...I Mix and deliver the audio files to them....Ie: VO, Music, FX etc... ....They receive them, and because their room is not callibrated, or controlled, or whatever the @#&% They change the levels, which I think are fine, and distort the whole project.......(My fault of course) I guess I am asking stupid questions....My problem lies in Ego's, and until i confront them, i might as well be a gas station attendant....

I guess my real question is:

What is the standard delivery level for DVD audio? for TV? Film? etc...

[Starcrash]

Philip's advice is solid, but -3 to -6 dBFS does seem a bit hot for TV-style DVD video. I suppose it really depends on the material and for what the DVD will be used. Also, careful with the music mixing analogy as music really is the "wild west frontier" when it comes to reference levels and monitoring. BTW, are you premixing your dialog with calibrated monitors (i.e. -20dBFS pink noise= 79 SPL for TV/DVD)? If so, then use your ears as Phil recommended, and you'll know what the right level should be. -3 is pretty crankin' on a calibrated system. That said, a lot of TV commercial spots VO are totally cranked, so maybe I'm wrong if that's what you're after.

[dkstudios]

I agree, it is the wild west with music..........I suppose that answers my questions........I put in a consumer dvd from blockbuster, and it is louder than the next, and the next ,so on so forth....so standard does not seem realistic.....especially with TV, I have heard so many volume jumps from show to show to commercial to commercial, it seems ridiculous....I guess I will have to invent my own style and standard.....I have not calibrated my system with pink noise etc.....Can you guide me to the appropriate forum or site, so that I may learn to do this....

Thank you phil and Star for your quick assistance......Phil your credits are highly impressive....."we do what we love"

[dr sound]

dkstudios said:
Poster: dkstudios
Subject: Re: Standard levels for VO and Music Beds DVD

I agree, it is the wild west with music..........I suppose that answers my questions........I put in a consumer dvd from blockbuster, and it is louder than the next, and the next ,so on so forth....so standard does not seem realistic.....especially with TV, I have heard so many volume jumps from show to show to commercial to commercial, it seems ridiculous....I guess I will have to invent my own style and standard.....I have not calibrated my system with pink noise etc.....Can you guide me to the appropriate forum or site, so that I may learn to do this....

--------------------------------------------
dr.sound replies:
DK,
Look at the top of this page at the sticky
"Room Calibration for Film and TV". I wrote it . Unless you calibrate you room and then purchase some good meters such as "Dorroughs" all you are doing is guessing. As for DVD's , is your DVD calibrated? How do you know the reference level? Add to that you are taking your experience in records and trying to apply that in Post. Sometimes it works, but this time it won't. We in Post use dynamics. Unless you are trying to knock a person out of their chair you must understand and use the above mentioned calibration. There is a standard for a reason! Spend some time and a few dollars and set your room up right. I bet your system isn't calibrated for -20!
Good Luck,

[dkstudios]

You might be the only doctor I will not ask for a 2nd opinion on! I am working on crossing over to post, and you offer Great advice, and noted! It is amazing how many brilliant people we have access to on DUC.....For Free!

Thankyou........DK

[mnoxious]

After your studio is calibrated and the mix sounds good to you, the AUDIO EDITOR/MIXER, I'd just pull rank on the video dude and say DON'T TOUCH MY MIX I DON'T EDIT YOUR PICTURE! I'm sort of kidding, but kind of not, always find a way to say what you want diplomatically. Anyway, I've had similar problems in the past where a video editor laid my tracks to picture and messed with the levels or didn't properly set up his levels. I've even had an unfortunate event once where in the DVD mastering process they applied compression to my mix and destroyed the overall dynamic range of the piece. Good thing the client heard the final audio before the DVD came out and they were able to know who caused the problem.

If you can be there when the video editor is laying back audio then you can be a kind of control. If your audio is distorting one thing he might not be doing is panning your tracks properly. I know in Final Cut Pro the panning for each track defaults to 0 when importing audio. The video editor then needs to pan properly or you will get summing which often will cause tracks to clip.

I noticed you are locating in SLC as am I. I'd be more than happy to discuss things further with you or check out your studio and help you calibrate it etc. I'm no Dr. nor do I have nearly the amount of credits as some other guys on this forum but I am local and have mixed a few films, some TV shows, commercials, DVD special features, albums, training videos etc. I'm also always interested in expanding my network of local sound dudes. So click on my user name and email me if you wish.

Mark

[audiogeek1]

Definitely check out the room calibration setup at the top. Also when we give stuff to guys who author dvds we give them an AC3 file that we have created. We just agree to a specific start point. Once you have this then you have control of your audio straight to DVD. Also you can give your mixed audio to the avid editor. Everything is time stamped in PT so they can just drag that to the correct timecode spot. Or you can create an AAF for them but only give them your final mix. This way they can't do much to mess it up except add more stuff to it.

I feel your pain. It is sad when the video editor feels they can do the audio. I would never claim to be a video editor. I can but I am much better at audio then video. I will stick to the home movies with my video editing. As I am in Provo I would be willing to come help you out. I am in SLC on a regular basis.

Let me know

Mike