Using Fireface 400 with DIGI 002, via ADAT?

[jimbojimbo]

Hey guys,

I've recently bought a Fireface 400 - love it, great converters!

Now, what I'd like to do is use it on conjunction with my Digidesign DIGI 002 Rack, so I can use it with Pro Tools. I want to be able to use the FF400 preamps, or line inputs, and send them via ADAT into the DIGI 002 Rack so record in Pro Tools.

The question is how?!

I need the FF400 to be running in stand alone mode, because the DIGI 002 Rack will be using the Firewire interface. But if I can't connect the FF400 with firewire, then I can't route it via Totalmix, can I?

Help!!

[albee1952]

you may have 2 choices here. First, you can daisy chain the FireFace off the extra port of the 002. Second, (sorry I'm not familiar with the FireFace), when running it in standalone mode, does it either default to 1-8 in routed to 1-8 out, or does it remember whatever settings were last loaded with the TotalMix software? I would hook it all up and start experimenting. Just remember to go into protools hardware setup and select Sync to ADAT or you will get clicks and pops all over the place.

[jimbojimbo]

Ah, right, managed to do it!
I didn't think Pro Tools would work if I was using the Fireface daisychained from the 002 Rack, but it does.

I then simply set up the I/O in Pro Tools to enable the ADAT tracks and it worked. I was then able to use TotalMix, because it was connected to Firewire.

Thanks!

I've one more question, if you don't mind?
Is it possible to monitor from the Fireface too, or does it have to be the 002?

[albee1952]

You can send lightpipe out of the 002 and into the FireFace(assuming it has a lightpipe input). You just need to enable the path in the I/O setup page/output tab. A warning for you though, the signal path may not be at the exact same latency as the analog outputs of the 002. If you are just going stereo to speakers, this is not an issue at all. Where it can become an issue is if you are mixing signals from BOTH the FireFace outputs AND the 002 outputs. You might get some phasing(happened to me when mixing main out of 003 and outputs from a Presonus Firestudio). Give it a try, you won't hurt anything. Don't forget, when you bounce to disk, you need to select the actual outputs you are monitoring thru(otherwise your bounced file will have no sound).

[jimbojimbo]

That's great, thanks.
With all that in mind, would I be correct in thinking that if I used the other I/O's on the FireFace for external equipment - like a compressor, for example - then I'd have no problems with the suggested latency?

Well, despite the general issues I'd get with latency anyway...

[paranoid android]

You can use the Fireface in standalone truly, you don't need it to be hooked to the computer or anything else via firewire. All you have to do is open Total Mix (switch to Matrix view preferably) and set your routing. Total Mix is completely free route, meaning any input can be sent to any output or even to multiple parallel outputs. Once you have everything configured you need to Flash Current Mixer State....which will make your settings the default settings loaded by the hardware even before your computer boots or even if not connected to a computer at all. I'd route your Analog Inputs to the ADAT outs, and your ADAT in to the set of Analog Outs connected to your monitors (and/or headphones, etc). This will allow you to record through the Fireface's ADC and monitor through the Fireface's DAC, bypassing the 002's converters completely.

I'd also open your Firewire Settings CP and set latency to minimum, set your gain settings as desired, input bandwidth as desired, and so forth. I'd also set your sampling rate and clock mode to Master (or AutoSync if you prefer the 002 as master ). I'd slave the the 002 to the Fireface if I were you, but go with whatever is convenient. I'm not around a Fireface or 002 at the moment, so I'm going off of memory. Hope that helps. Best fortune.

It can sometimes cause major problems with two firewire interface plugged to a computer or each other if they're not designed to, especially as far as sync and digital connections. Just a fair warning.

[jimbojimbo]

Hey there,

Thanks for the rather informative reply! I've set everything up accordingly, but still seem to have no joy...

I've uploaded a pic of the Matrix, I wonder if you could have a little look and tell me where I'm going wrong?

http://www.dicejar.com/matrix.tiff
Thanks in advance! :-/

[paranoid android]

First of all I can't stress it enough, it's not a good idea to have both units hooked to your computer at the same time. If you're going to use the FF400 as a stand-alone converter, setup your Fireface, flash the settings to the hardware, then unplug the firewire cable from the computer. You will likely have problems with the FF400 plugged to your computer and trying to use it as a stand-alone converter as it is meant to use Core Audio or ASIO pass through in that configuration. Sorry, just had to say.

As for as the image of your Matrix it looks correctly setup. Your analog inputs 1-8 are correctly sent out what appears to be your ADAT outputs and your inputs 11-12 (Which I assume are ADAT ins) are being sent to your first two analog outputs...which I assume is where your monitors are. I'm not familiar with the FF400's I/O as I've only used the 800 and other RME gear, but it appears correct. Also, I don't think you ever mentioned if you're trying to use the Fireface as both an AD and DA. If you're trying to do both, make sure you send back out the 002 to the Fireface and have your monitors connected to your chosen outputs 1-2.

Remember, your horizontal labels (top and bottom) are your physical outputs, your vertical labels that read IN are your physical inputs, and the vertical labels that read OUT are your software (Core Audio or ASIO) outputs from say Logic, DP, or such.

That said it's probably the way you have the units configured or the routing coming out of Pro Tools. Here are some things to check.

1) Are they synced correctly with only one being the master and the other the slave?
2) Are they locking to sync or do they have conflicting sampling rates?
3) Is the sampling rate too high? The 002 does not support S/MUX so you will need to use 44.1 or 48kHz sampling rate only.
4) What is your sync reference? ADAT optical, SPDIF?
5) Are you selecting your optical inputs inside Pro Tools? Are you sending back out of PT/002 to the RME/Monitors (if you plan to use the FF as a DA)?
6) Are your using digital or optical SPDIF (Your SPDIF optical toggles could be conflicting with your ADAT config because it wasn't chosen as your choice for the optical connector).
7) If you do have the Fireface's firewire cable unplugged, did you remember to flash the settings to the hardware? You must do this! You can't go by what's loaded upon booting your computer because it automatically loads your last preset from a file, however when is unplugged from firewire it reverts to factory settings if you don't replace your default with something applicable by flashing to hardware. You need to flash BOTH Settings and Total Mix.

Here are some proven settings that I used with the Fireface 800 as AD/DA on my Windows laptop. I only use the FF on my mobile rig which is a Windows/Nuendo setup, so I haven't used it on my Mac...but it's essentially the same and the 400 should resemble the same settings also.

And here's how the Matrix was setup on that same laptop. Here I'm using only one of the FF800 ADAT connections (In and Out), only the rear analog inputs and only two of the front pres (for mobile editing). The rear 8 analog inputs are routed directly out to the ADAT 1 outs and the pre amps 9 and 10 are also (to 7 + 8 ADAT). I'm using the unit for both AD/DA so I'm also sending back to the FF which comes in through ADAT 1 ins....which in turn are routed directly to the rear 8 analog outs which are connected to a summing mixer. For the sake of easy monitoring I have all the ADAT 1 ins and the pres 9+10 routed to the headphones. Seems like a lot but it's not, it's a lot like yours. I can't tell if your setup is 100percent though because I don't know the I/O and labeling of the FF400.

Generally here's how my matrix is.

FF Rear Analog 1-8 Ins + Pre 9-10 > FF ADAT1 Outs (1-8) > Other Unit's ADAT Ins > Software > Other Unit's ADAT Outs > FF ADAT1 Ins > FF Analog 1-8 Outs > Chandler Minirack Mixer

I'm using the the RME directly now, but these settings worked for me when I used the M-Audio Lightbridge + Nuendo + Pro Tools M-Powered before I sold the LBs.

If you have more problems still, why not head over to the RME forum...they are more authoritative on your FF unit and will help you get setup. Use both Digi Support here and RME Support there and you should be up and running in no time. Both are helpful groups. Best wishes.

[Stackin]

So glad I found this post!

I have been doing my head in about this exact setup. Mainly because I successfully recorded an entire EP without hitch using this exact configuration . . . The difference was I was using a MacBook Pro and now I am using a PC!

Here is my issue and I would greatly appreciate any insight:

I get pops and clicks in my recording, playback and even when the computer is just sitting there.

I am running firewire out of the desktop PC into the 002.

ADAT OUT of the 002 into ADAT IN of the Fireface and vice versa.

I have experimented having the fireface plugged into the computer via firewire, daisy chained with the 002 and simply running off flash memory - no difference . . . Still getting pops.

I have enabled the hardware settings in pro tools to accommodate this setup:

Optical Format: ADAT
Clock Source: OPTICAL (I want to run the fireface as master)

Corresponding to this, I am running the settings of the fireface as follows:

Buffersize: 48 Samples
Limit Bandwidth: All channels
Options checked: Check Input, SyncAlign, TMS, Interleaved
Clock Mode: Master
Pref. Sync Ref: Word Clock
Word Clock Out: Unchecked
DDS: Active (project is in 44.1)

Here are some things I have done to try and isolate the issue:

Purchased new ADAT cables so I can rule out dodgy cables as cause.
Formatted the drive, reinstalled windows, optimized windows for audio (as per 'sound on sound magazine'), installed basically just pro tools and fireface
I’ve updated the to the latest fireface drivers.

So I can rule out it is some kind of software conflict or hardware conflict, the computer is virus free and has virtually nothing on it. All graphics, motherboard drivers are working well.

Gigabyte/S-Series for Intel Core 2
Gigabyte Ati PCI

I am on the verge of just giving up on the fireface and using the 002 even though I much prefer the AD & DA sound of fireface.

PLEASE HELP!!!

JUST TO ADD: When I set the clock source in Pro Tools to 'INTERNAL' I get less frequent pops, but still pops.

[TCM]

To put the 002 and the fireface on the same firewire bus is prone to problems!
The only solution may be to get another firewire card for your computer and use this.
I had a long discussion with the Prismsound people and they said, if I wanted to hook up an Orpheus to my computer along with my 002R, the only possibility would be a second firewire card to connect the Orpheus.

Hope that helps