Getting paid

[Tgrokz]

now before i hear it from everyone...
im NOT in it for the money. recording and mixing is a HUGE passion of mine. if i could do this for free, i would. i get so much pleasure out of doing what i do. i love it.
but
i need gear. i need gear reeeaaally bad. i have been doing this for 2 years with an mbox. i track all my drums at my school. i want to get myself a 002r, octopre, and more mics (who doesnt want more mics???), but in order for that to happen, i need the cash. so i have recorded my band and all my friends acoustic things and what not. its given me great practice and publicity around here.
so now its time to make $ to gear up. only problem is, im a very passive guy. the customers i get are friends of friends, who then become my friends. now i love making new friends, but now they dont pay. for instance, i recorded this kid a few days ago. he did 4 songs and an instrumental thing. i mixed it all and they came out GREAT and i was very happy with the results. only problem is, i just met the kid the day he came to record, and he came with my good friend. the atmosphere was very friendly (which i love seeing as how it makes the performer very at ease), so i couldnt really ask for some type of compensation for doing his demo. also, as i said, im very passive, so i make for a bad business man.

basically, how do i ask for money. i wanted to origionally record them, mix the songs, then depending on jsut how good the songs came out, charge accordingly. the only problem is, the artist might try to screw me and say the songs suck. i didnt want to have to charge a flat rate, seeing as i dont know whats a good price to charge per hour/song and i didnt know if that includes the time it took to mix it. i am such a tweeker and will constantly go back to the sessions to do things to them. i still work on sessions i thought i had done from last year. so i dont know how thatt would come into play with mixing time

the business end is all so confusing to me, hence me gonig to college for it. but for now, how do i ask someone for payment, how much should i charge,how should i charge, and so on.

[mrbobb]

It can be a touchy subject and I'm sure a lot of opinions will follow mine. To start off, deals need to be made and need to be clear before you press record. As far as this new client goes, the work is done, chalk it up to a great learning experience, and when you deliver the masters to him, let him know the hard work you put into it (I'm sure he can tell if he likes the mixes), and you would love him to come back sometime and record some more, or refer some friend, whatever.

Second, charge everyone, especially friends. You can give them a discount (or at least tell them they are getting the friend discount), but you need to come up with a price and a timeline. The easiest way to get taken advantage of (and lose friends in the process) is to have an open-ended agreement (I'll mix this when I have a few free hours). This should also solve your problem of having mixes drag on for a year. If you like to tweak and revisit songs, charge a flat fee for mixing, just set a date with the client that you will deliver the mixes. That way they don't drag on. Let the client have a day of tweaking the mixes (anything more and you have to charge extra).

I'm just rambling on what I remember from your post and what I can draw from my own experience. Don't sell yourself short. If you are good, they will pay a fair price. The best thing is to get the deal down before you press record and collecting half up front should secure both your time and their commitment.

Good luck

M

[Tgrokz]

thanks.
another problem i have with that, is that this isnt supposed to be cd quality stuff. one friend, who does the most stuff with me, has an mbox. he has some terrible no name dynamic performance vocal mic from the 80's that he will do scratch demos on before comming to me. he really doesnt care just how good the songs come out. infact, everyone i have done work with doesnt mind just settling with what they got. theres another kid in the area who has some cheap set-up with cheap mics and cheap pres. he can track drums, not well, but that doesnt matter to anyone here. Plus, hes a good business guy. he did the whole deca thing and went to the nationals and stuff and is a very agressive greedy kid. the messed up thing is that i know he will get the business and so much money. i have herd his mix's and i was, not only greatly unimpressed, but i was actually disgusted, because he charges hundreds and hundreds for a demo...and knowing that kids stil lgo to him is so messed up. no one really cares about quality. they just want it done. it just sucks when no one can appreciate your time, effort, and creativity.
how can i get the gear to record everything here without the $? how can i get the money if everyone goes to him to record because he has the gear?
whatt im getting at is, these are kids. 16-19. i'm 19 myself, but if i were going to someone to cut a cd (or even a demo), i would want a good solid sound. i wouldn't give some guy $270 for 5 poorly recorded and mixed tracks. unfortunitly, everyone in this area, who isnt already involved with another studio (there is an HD studio around here that does OK mixes), just doesnt care about their music.
if i charge, they will do it themselves. if they need drums done, they can't do it themselves, so they go to this kid because he can and i cant. its quite the prediciment. its very hard to get clients around here, ESPECIALLY without the gear. eh.
sorry for totally ranting

[JCBigler]

Okay, here's what you do:

First take three or four of your best tunes (yours, or other people's that you have done), and put together a demo reel-even just portions of a tune--like a minute and a half--showing off the different skills you have, i.e. drums, vocals, horns, etc... That way, when you tell people that you are charging them, and they ask why, you can let them listen to the kind of work you've done before. Find a rate and stick to it, wether it's hourly, or by the project, just make sure that you stick to it. Also, make sure you get paid at the end of the day. Don't release any kind of product, even just a quick one-off bounce the the client without getting payment. ALWAYS be up front about everthing, let them know how much you are charging, for how much work, and that you expect to be paid at the end of the session.

Second, come up with a discount plan of some kind for your friends. Turn them into talent agents for you. Somethng like, they get 1/3 off for every paying client they refer to you. If they bring in three paying clients, then they get a song, or so many hours of free studio time.

Third, I think it's pretty obvious that you need to find a way to track drums. If the other guy in your area can track drums, but doesn't do them very well, them you need to find a way to steal his business. Find out what his rate is, and undercut him by 10% for a better product. (Oh Lord, you brought out the greedy capitalist in me!)

As for how to aquire the needed gear and space, I can't help you there. You will need to figure out how to get it. Some people will tell you to work your butt off with what you have and pay cash for what you need. Others will tell you that getting a small loan, or credit card will eventually pay off in the long run. That's something you have to figure out for yourself. Talk to your parents, and see what they say.

[JCBigler]

OR BETTER YET!!!

Go to the HD studio in town, take them your demo reel, and see if they would like to take on another engineer, or let you sublet their studio during their down time. They may or may ot be interested, but it's worth a try, right?

And if you do get to sublet their studio, then you have a REAL good reason why you need to charge people.

[Tgrokz]

thanks alot for those responses. i actually already made a pretty solid demo real, which got me a really good letter of reccomendation for college by some big shot up in vermont or something. i can definitly use that. the one kid who i alwyas do stuff for, his songs always come out amazing with a wide variety of things gonig on (samples, acoustic, horns, weird vocal things, and lots of crazy stuff), so i know he can bring people in. he DID bring in that new client. the new client said he had more stuff comming and he wanted me to do it. my thing is i just feeel like when i say to him "listen man, im totally digging your sound and im loving the way your tunes are comming out, but i need to really get my business off the ground and get new gear and stuff, so im going to have to charge you $X per song, and i will have them all done and to you on X/X", he's going to basically get scared off. eh i gottas try it
as for drums, i need the 002r first then the octopre (light pipe), so that $2,000 right there. my cousion works at guitar center and said he can get me both of those at cost, which is oretty nice, considering it drops both thing to almsot half price. then i will need about 6 mics for drums (i have a 57, but that only covers snare). so if i do get everything so cost, it stil lwill be about $2000-$2500. and i HATE this kid, so i will have no problem stealing his business. he has a huge head start though. a HUGE empty basement, the money (his dad is rich), and the sneaky, slimy business skills. his only 2 potential cloents came to me and asked me to do their demos, because he was charging too much or something, aand i had to turn them down. they were more than willing to pay, but i just couldnt do it. so thats very important.
as for gonig to the HD studio, no can do. its run by 3 cocky, snotty, 20 year olds who pretty much hate everyone who isn't their friend. they sold drugs and used the money to buy a studio. its not a real business to them. just a thing to do. their songs come out so poor for the stuff they have, but they dont care.
well thank you both for responding. ill tell that kid about the charging, and also my friend, considering hes been a "client" for the past 5 months.

one more question. how much is good to charge for a song? the songs i usually do are acoustic (its really all i am able to do with 2 pres and an area filled with kids who want to be rock stars), so what would be a goood price to charge per song? thanks in advance

[Tarktones]

I usually work things like this:

#1 let them know that they have two payment options when it comes to the project. They can pay in full up front or half up front and half on completion. All up front is better for EVERYONE because most if not all of that money will go straight into gear that will greatly enhance their experience and product. Discuss the project (what type of music, how many musicians, how many tracks and a completion date) and offer them a package deal. I've found it's hard to keep friends when you charge by the hour.

#2 let them know it's nothing personal and not that you would suspect them of trying to swidnle you but what if you're set to get paid $1500 for a project and then half way through the mixdown the money-guy's car gets in a wreck and he has to spend the project money to get his car up and running again. As bad as that is, it's a whole lot of not-your-problem. You're a skilled individual whose talents and services deserve compensation the same as any other type of service. You wouldn't expect to pay a house builder after the house was built. You wouldn't expect to pay for your car until after you drove off the lot with the keys and title. Why would you expect a record or a demo without securing your engineer's services first?

Hopefully sharing those viewpoints might allow you to get the compensation you need without feeling like a jerk (because most of us would do it for free if we could afford to). It's important to not waver on this though. I did and I got burned. Once with a "business partner" who turned out to be shady and crazy and again with a client who was on the skids with a divorce. I should have said 'money up front' or 'maybe now isn't the best time for you to get this CD mastered since you've got so much else on your plate.'

Hope that helps.

[Tgrokz]

again, thank you so much. i posted a similiar thing on another board, and was called names and everyone acted all high and mighty with no real answers. i really do appreciate all you guys helping me here.

[Tarktones]

one more question. how much is good to charge for a song? the songs i usually do are acoustic (its really all i am able to do with 2 pres and an area filled with kids who want to be rock stars), so what would be a goood price to charge per song? thanks in advance

It depends on the project. If it's acoustic stuff, that should be pretty easy to mix. So it depends on how good or bad the performer is. If they can nail it in 1-3 takes (an estimate based on their character and rehearsal), I'd do it for as cheap as $60/tune. But if it's a full band, I'd run more like $150/tune. And granted, that's for the high school/college crowd/buddy discount.

If it's a real client, a gigging band and they all work and intend to really do something with it, I'd offer a package of record/mix/master for $200-$250/song depending on how long the project will take. The reason the rates jump for serious clients is because I'd probably rent someplace for tracking since anyplace I have free access to is going to be acoustically sub-optimal.

[Tgrokz]

yea as of right now, there really are no serious cd gigging clients. my school has a RIDICULOUS rig which i will have full access to, come sept. so im pretty pumped about that. untill then though, i gotta stick to what i got here, and i have yet to come across a "serious client". as i said, with the easy access to PTLE, people have learned to settle for less. come the fall semister though, im all about getting as many serious bands as i can and working with that insanse rig. its the biggest andd most expensive rig on long island, so im pretty excited.