Why does COMMIT track consolidate regions even when CONSOLIDATE is off?

[marcnyc]

This is something that's been bugging me forever, across multiple versions of Pro Tools (currently using Ultimate 2021.12 on Mac OS Monterey 12.0.1).

If I have multiple adjacent (but NOT touching) regions [say A-B-C, where the +-" is no region, dead space, blank] and I commit them, sometimes, instead of getting A-B-C I might get AB-C or A-BC...
There is absolutely NO audio between the regions and no trailing reverb or anything like that either... as a matter of fact to split them back apart I usually use STRIP SILENCE set to -96dB and 4000 Min Strip Duration, but I should not have to do that if Commit worked as expected.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thank you

[lesbrunn]

Originally Posted by marcnyc

This is something that's been bugging me forever, across multiple versions of Pro Tools (currently using Ultimate 2021.12 on Mac OS Monterey 12.0.1).

If I have multiple adjacent (but NOT touching) regions [say A-B-C, where the +-" is no region, dead space, blank] and I commit them, sometimes, instead of getting A-B-C I might get AB-C or A-BC...
There is absolutely NO audio between the regions and no trailing reverb or anything like that either... as a matter of fact to split them back apart I usually use STRIP SILENCE set to -96dB and 4000 Min Strip Duration, but I should not have to do that if Commit worked as expected.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thank you

No light to be shed; it's a bug. It actually worked for me before in an older version, but then it became what it is now. It bothers me but i won't break a sweat over it, knowing Avid the way I do.

[lesbrunn]

Originally Posted by marcnyc

This is something that's been bugging me forever, across multiple versions of Pro Tools (currently using Ultimate 2021.12 on Mac OS Monterey 12.0.1).

If I have multiple adjacent (but NOT touching) regions [say A-B-C, where the +-" is no region, dead space, blank] and I commit them, sometimes, instead of getting A-B-C I might get AB-C or A-BC...
There is absolutely NO audio between the regions and no trailing reverb or anything like that either... as a matter of fact to split them back apart I usually use STRIP SILENCE set to -96dB and 4000 Min Strip Duration, but I should not have to do that if Commit worked as expected.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thank you

Funnily enough, it does work sometimes. It's just erratic; there doesn't seem to be any logical explanation. Have you noticed that committed tracks are many times not identical to the original tracks? I've seen many timing discrepancies where I've had to nudge segments of the committed audio to get it closer to the original. This is sometimes very apparent with quantized midi tracks.

[BScout]

Originally Posted by lesbrunn

This is sometimes very apparent with quantized midi tracks.

That's a natural problem of samplers (not really commit) since it is dependent on how the samples are cut that are triggered by MIDI (and this gets more troublesome with round-robin, etc because it depends on consistency)

[Kris75]

Originally Posted by marcnyc

This is something that's been bugging me forever, across multiple versions of Pro Tools (currently using Ultimate 2021.12 on Mac OS Monterey 12.0.1).

If I have multiple adjacent (but NOT touching) regions [say A-B-C, where the +-" is no region, dead space, blank] and I commit them, sometimes, instead of getting A-B-C I might get AB-C or A-BC...
There is absolutely NO audio between the regions and no trailing reverb or anything like that either... as a matter of fact to split them back apart I usually use STRIP SILENCE set to -96dB and 4000 Min Strip Duration, but I should not have to do that if Commit worked as expected.

Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thank you

This is because some plugins have a noise floor above -140dBfs. If there is any audio that's -140dBfs or above, it will create a continuous clip as it sees the noise. Slate, PA, Waves, or virtually any analog-modeled plugin will exhibit this behavior.

Another thing that can cause this is Melodyne. It will take what you transfer into Melodyne and commit it as a single clip.

It's not a bug, it's how it's designed. Now if you get this behavior and have no audio above -140dBfs, you should contact support. I just tried this and it worked as expected.

[lesbrunn]

Originally Posted by Kris75

This is because some plugins have a noise floor above -140dBfs. If there is any audio that's -140dBfs or above, it will create a continuous clip as it sees the noise. Slate, PA, Waves, or virtually any analog-modeled plugin will exhibit this behavior.

Another thing that can cause this is Melodyne. It will take what you transfer into Melodyne and commit it as a single clip.

It's not a bug, it's how it's designed. Now if you get this behavior and have no audio above -140dBfs, you should contact support. I just tried this and it worked as expected.

Hi Kris75, thanks for your helpful explanation. But if, as you say, all the major plugin makers have noise floors above -140dBfs, then maybe Avid should find a way around this issue. Is there any use in offering non-consolidation if it can't really happen practically?

[massivekerry]

Originally Posted by lesbrunn

Hi Kris75, thanks for your helpful explanation. But if, as you say, all the major plugin makers have noise floors above -140dBfs, then maybe Avid should find a way around this issue. Is there any use in offering non-consolidation if it can't really happen practically?

I think what was meant is that a lot of these “analog modeled” plugins have modeled “analog noise” as a feature. In Plugin Alliance, it’s usually called V-Gain. In Waves it’s “Analog” (or a few other things you can click on or off, depending on the specific plug-in) Slate’s VCC (and some other VMR modules) have noise controls. It’s to add that “real analog experience”, but if you’re not intentionally using it, you should probably turn it off. But if you are trying to “fake analog” it, then the reality of real analog was that you’d have this persistent noise floor coming off the tape, and other gear (which you’d have to wrestle with using gates and mutes) so PT translating the effect that the plug-in maker is aiming for would and should copy those empty spots of noise when you commit or bounce. Yes it’s a drag, but now you know and can start working around it.

[lesbrunn]

Originally Posted by massivekerry

I think what was meant is that a lot of these “analog modeled” plugins have modeled “analog noise” as a feature. In Plugin Alliance, it’s usually called V-Gain. In Waves it’s “Analog” (or a few other things you can click on or off, depending on the specific plug-in) Slate’s VCC (and some other VMR modules) have noise controls. It’s to add that “real analog experience”, but if you’re not intentionally using it, you should probably turn it off. But if you are trying to “fake analog” it, then the reality of real analog was that you’d have this persistent noise floor coming off the tape, and other gear (which you’d have to wrestle with using gates and mutes) so PT translating the effect that the plug-in maker is aiming for would and should copy those empty spots of noise when you commit or bounce. Yes it’s a drag, but now you know and can start working around it.

I always turn off the fake analog noise. Maybe others need it; I don't. Not after battling noise floors for ages in the analog world with mixers and tape machines. But commit still consolidates most clips regardless. Maybe this is subjective, but -140 is very low, and it's a bit extreme if commit expects total silence in order not to consolidate. Maybe there should be options for different noise floors? I also find it strange that there is no option to just mute the original track after committing, and decide to de-activate or hide it later. Sometimes that is what is needed.

[Kris75]

Originally Posted by lesbrunn

Hi Kris75, thanks for your helpful explanation. But if, as you say, all the major plugin makers have noise floors above -140dBfs, then maybe Avid should find a way around this issue. Is there any use in offering non-consolidation if it can't really happen practically?

I had an editing script made to help me overcome this when I use "analog" plugins. Once I commit, I just run the script and it makes the edits as they were before.

I am not sure if Avid could work around this. Some plugins only add noise for a certain time after they see silence as well. It would most likely require every plugin developer to update their plugins to a new SDK and make working with older sessions difficult if not impossible. The current implementation works and is the main reason I avoid using "analog" plugins. I too came from the analog world and don't miss it for one second

[lesbrunn]

Originally Posted by Kris75

I had an editing script made to help me overcome this when I use "analog" plugins. Once I commit, I just run the script and it makes the edits as they were before.

I am not sure if Avid could work around this. Some plugins only add noise for a certain time after they see silence as well. It would most likely require every plugin developer to update their plugins to a new SDK and make working with older sessions difficult if not impossible. The current implementation works and is the main reason I avoid using "analog" plugins. I too came from the analog world and don't miss it for one second

I guess it's in the nature of humans to always want more. I shouldn't be complaining, considering the fact that not so long ago the only way out was to bounce in real time... and that would be consolidated audio. For me, freeze and commit are the two greatest things that have happened to PT in the past decade or so.

Can you explain a bit more about this script you mentionrd?