M2 Pro Mini vs M1 Studio Max

[mrguitarguy]

I'm interested in updating my PT rig. I'm considering either the M1 Max Studio or the M2 Pro 12 Core Mac mini. For what it's worth I am not doing any kind of video work. I work solely in audio production. I do use virtual instruments at times but it is not my primary concern. I am primarily working with bands doing rock and country production for radio. I'm curious if anyone has compared these systems?

Assuming the same 32gb of RAM and identical drive sizes, the M2 Pro should have more CPU power and 2 additional cores. My understanding with Pro Tools is that CPU speed is often the biggest need and cause of bottle necks. If RAM is the bigger issue perhaps the slower speed of the Max would be better with it's higher RAM speeds and the ability to go to 64gb of RAM.

My primary concern is stability at low buffers for tracking and the ability to mix 50-200 tracks.

After hours of reading through threads and reviews I find most of the reviews I can find seem to be related to graphics and video editing or sometimes usage tests with Logic. Since I work in Pro Tools I was hoping the community here might have a take on this as Pro Tools usage is my only concern. I know many of you are more tech savvy than I am here.

It seems there are a number of happy M1 Studio owners on the forums. I'm wondering if it makes more sense to jump on the new m2 chipset though.

Any input would be welcome. Thank you so much for you help and insights!

[JFreak]

M2 is basically just overclocked M1, the different variants make all the difference. If you do not need (or want to buy) more than 32GB memory, go for mini.

[Phil O'Keefe]

A couple of things to think about…

I don’t think Pro Tools really utilizes the efficiency cores, so four of the mini’s cores aren’t going to do much for you, while that’s true of only two of the cores on the M1 Max. The actual, PT-effective core count is the same (eight).

While the memory bandwidth of the M1 Max is better, I think the M2 Pro’s high-performance cores benchmark a bit higher than the M1 Max high-performance cores, but not by a huge amount. Still, it may be enough to make a measurable difference in PT. But the M1 Max is certainly not a slow computer. From your description, I do the same basic types of recording you do, and I’ve been very happy with my Mac Studio.

Personally, I like the idea of a larger case, and a more robust cooling system, but then again, every Apple Silicon computer (MacBook Air M1, mini M1 and Mac Studio M1 Max) I’ve tried has been very quiet or absolutely silent, so maybe the new minis are, too. I don’t know, but I’d definitely look into that if I was considering an M2 Pro mini.

One thing I would definitely miss if I switched to an M2 Pro mini is the front panel USB ports. I use them a lot…

[BScout]

M2 Pro 12C is better than the M1 Max unless you need more RAM than 32GB or more GPU power (which Pro Tools doesn't use). In which case the M1 Max Studio is the better option.
That's the simple cut and dry.

Case/ports/etc don't add any value in the long run. For instance, USB hubs or TB docks eliminate any case gains -- you can add as much as you need with those. Processing power is better on the M2 Pro. Single core speed is more important to Pro Tools. Even minor gains are more valuable.

[mrguitarguy]

Thanks for the info guys. I really appreciate all your time and insights.

BScout, what you said was my thinking as well. I went ahead and ordered an M2 Pro 12 core Mini. Fortunately Apple gives you 14 days to evaluate it so I'll plan on putting through some serious stress testing. If it doesn't work out, I'll look at the Studio series options or possibly wait to see what's announced in the coming months.


I'll also be looking for a thunderbolt case for an HD Native card. I've heard good things about OWC and Sonnet's offerings. If anyone has any experience with those I'd love to hear about it. I should just need the a case for that single PCIe card.

[Darryl Ramm]

I hope you ordered the mini with a SSD 1TB or larger (I'd avoid the smallest SSD configs with slower SSD performance).... and ideally also configure that internal SSD to hold all your sessions and samples if you can. Since memory and SSD is absolutely not upgradeable (you can add external SSD but it's always going to be slower than the internal SSD). I'd err on the larger memory and SSD size to allow this computer a good useful life.

You need a PCIe expansion chassis that supports PCIe 2 to allow for the improper PCIe implementation in Avid's HD Native cards. Suitable Sonnet chassis allow for that, and list this in their compatibility specs. There have also been lots of discussions about folks having problems with HD Native cards and Apple Silicon Macs that you can find by searching DUC. Use google search with the site:duc.avid.com qualifier to search for those threads.

[mrguitarguy]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I hope you ordered the mini with a SSD 1TB or larger (I'd avoid the smallest SSD configs with slower SSD performance).... and ideally also configure that internal SSD to hold all your sessions and samples if you can. Since memory and SSD is absolutely not upgradeable (you can add external SSD but it's always going to be slower than the internal SSD). I'd err on the larger memory and SSD size to allow this computer a good useful life.

You need a PCIe expansion chassis that supports PCIe 2 to allow for the improper PCIe implementation in Avid's HD Native cards. Suitable Sonnet chassis allow for that, and list this in their compatibility specs. There have also been lots of discussions about folks having problems with HD Native cards and Apple Silicon Macs that you can find by searching DUC. Use google search with the site:duc.avid.com qualifier to search for those threads.

Darryl, thank you for the info! I did see that some people were having issues with the HD Native cards. I thought this was primarily related to the Mac Studio models and not the Mini's. I'll try to do some more searching of the DUC on the topic as you recommended.

As for the SSD storage, is there any reason why an external SSD would be an issue for running sessions? All of the ports are significantly faster than the SSD Sata II drives I'm running in my Mac Pro 5,1. (I use SATA II SSD's for samples and sessions in my Mac Pro without a problem). I appreciate any insight you can share regarding this. My original plan was to use external drives for sample libraries and Pro Tools sessions. I thought a Samsung NVME drive in an external case would run much faster than my current drives with TB 4/USB 3.1 Gen 2. Is there something I am overlooking?

I always appreciate how knowledgeable you are on these topics. Thanks again for your help!

[Sugarnutz]

Originally Posted by mrguitarguy

Darryl, thank you for the info! I did see that some people were having issues with the HD Native cards. I thought this was primarily related to the Mac Studio models and not the Mini's. I'll try to do some more searching of the DUC on the topic as you recommended.

As for the SSD storage, is there any reason why an external SSD would be an issue for running sessions? All of the ports are significantly faster than the SSD Sata II drives I'm running in my Mac Pro 5,1. (I use SATA II SSD's for samples and sessions in my Mac Pro without a problem). I appreciate any insight you can share regarding this. My original plan was to use external drives for sample libraries and Pro Tools sessions. I thought a Samsung NVME drive in an external case would run much faster than my current drives with TB 4/USB 3.1 Gen 2. Is there something I am overlooking?

I always appreciate how knowledgeable you are on these topics. Thanks again for your help!

This is what I found to do what you’re asking. It holds one NVMe drive and one SATA drive (either SSD or spinner) plus expands your ports.

MiniStack STX

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by mrguitarguy

Darryl, thank you for the info! I did see that some people were having issues with the HD Native cards. I thought this was primarily related to the Mac Studio models and not the Mini's. I'll try to do some more searching of the DUC on the topic as you recommended.

As for the SSD storage, is there any reason why an external SSD would be an issue for running sessions? All of the ports are significantly faster than the SSD Sata II drives I'm running in my Mac Pro 5,1. (I use SATA II SSD's for samples and sessions in my Mac Pro without a problem). I appreciate any insight you can share regarding this. My original plan was to use external drives for sample libraries and Pro Tools sessions. I thought a Samsung NVME drive in an external case would run much faster than my current drives with TB 4/USB 3.1 Gen 2. Is there something I am overlooking?

My suspicion is at least some of the problem folks have been having is not specific to a model Mac, but more is related to Apple Silicon Macs. There are some tips/KB articles that may help, and one mistakes folks make when moving over to systems with Thunderbolt is to use a USB-C but not Thunderbolt cables for these connections, Thunderbolt 3/4 cables (3 or 4 makes no difference) look the same but don't have the Thunderbolt logo. it has the be Thunderbolt 3 or 4 cable, ideally a certified cable. And all longer Thunderbolt cables have active driver chips at each end... which adds to their cost. As much as I like large DigiLink systems, I suspect we are past the time where it makes sense to migrate off smaller HD Native systems onto third party USB or Thunderbolt CoreAudio interfaces. HD Native really has no benefit over good quality USB or Thunderbolt interfaces.

Your correct it is possible to get fast external drives with Thunderbolt 3, but as always what exact speeds you get depends on what exactly is connected/how. My own bias is to try to configure internal SSD storage to accommodate working sessions and samples and not to have to attach external storage, but then I mostly work on MacBook Pros and just don't want to *have* to connect external storage for stuff to work. And there is still folks that assume you have to use external storage for sessions or samples or who assume that adding external storage will be overall faster than using internal storage. With modern Macs the internal NVMe SSD is several times faster than the fastest Thunderbolt NVMe you can connect (largely limited by the 4xPCIe 3 speeds of Thunderbolt 3/4). Fast NVMe storage tends to make everything fast, boot times, Pro Tools startup times, VI load times (if they are not streaming VIs), backup times (assuming you are going to a fast backup device), etc. So the question is not just can Pro Tools work... it often can with just about any external or internal drive if you have disk cache enabled (set to a size to cache the session).

My current MBP has a 2TB SSD and space is tight but I'm able to fit everthing I need for Pro Tools in that, I know others would need much more space. I especially like the ability to move the MBP and work reliably, without needing external disks/cables etc. I also need lots of other storage at times for development or other work and so have also ended up with another 6TB of M.2 NVMe SSDs connected vi Thunderbolt and Sonnet expansion chassis.

And if you have a Mac Pro 5,1 and never installed a separate SATA III controller card, then yep now you are running at SATA II speeds. But while SATA II mostly limits bandwidth, just about any SATA SSDs you have should make a significant improvement in I/O latency. (Latency under some decent overall storage read/write load is what typically really matters). Any SATA controller/dock/enclosure you connect the Thunderbolt 3 will provide SATA III, and good commodity USB SSDs (without even going to Thunderbolt SSDs) now have moved beyond SATA to run NVMe over USB and can get into TB/s speeds with USB 3.2 Gen 2 or 2x2 (like the Samsung T7 or Western Digital/SanDisk Extreme PRO Portable SSD although that one is limited by Macs only supporting USB 3.1/3.2 Gen 2 and not 2x2). Or you go for Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSDs... and they are ultimately limited by the 4 x PCIe 3 lanes of Thunderbolt 3/4. Be careful what SSD drive is what, performance varies widely, ... e.g. some vendors claim "Thunderbolt" but are only packing SATA SSDs in the enclosure. If you want to use a NVMe SSD, e.g. a M.2 drive in an external case you should/need to be using Thunderbolt 3/4 case not USB 3.2 (or any other USB protocol flavor).

[Ben Jenssen]

I say use your money on external storage. With Thunderbolt it can deliver speeds of 2.5-3GB/s r/w, and that's plenty fast. Internal storage prices are appx double. I actually manage to have system, apps and everything essential on a 256GB internal. Not saying it's ideal, but it's economical. Also, my 256 internal is half the speed of the M1 mini I had before, but I don't notice it. Boot times and launch times, everything is faster, no matter the slower internal.