Optimizing Loudness Penalty

[NoBruno]

I am using the MeterPlugs Loudness Penalty Analyzer. I run my final mix through the Maxim Limiter Plugin with the Ceiling set at 0.1 dB and try different threshold settings on Maxim until I find one that minimizes any audible artifacts from Maxim while yielding an optimal loudness penalty (LP). Now the question is what is an "optimal" loudness penalty?

Here is what I am thinking:
• You need to shoot for some LP. If your LP is 0+, that means you are below the target loudness for the streaming service and they my apply positive gain to your track. If the amount of gain added exceeds the difference between your max peak and full scale digital, then it will introduce digital clipping.
• On the other extreme, you don't want to drive Maxim so hard that there are easily audible artifacts. This will typically result in higher overall gain after LP, but at an obvious price.
• I am interested in the gray area between these two extremes. In this regime, the tradeoffs would seem to be straightforward. When comparing two possible Maxim settings, weigh effective gain against any sonic differences.
• I think of the effective gain as the gain introduced by Maxim less any resultant LP, or
• Effective Gain = Maxim Gain - LP,
○ (Maxim automatically inserts makeup gain equal to the absolute value of its threshold, so a threshold of -10 dB introduces gain of 10 dB)
○ (I am using the absolute value of LP, which is displayed as a negative number in the plugin)
• So if I am compare two Maxim settings it might look like this:
○ Setting 1: Threshold: -6 dB LP: 2.4 Effective gain: 6 - 2.4 = 3.6
○ Setting 2: Threshold: -8 dB LP: 3.9 Effective gain: 8 - 3.9 = 4.1
• In this example, I can get an extra .5 dB by driving the Maxim a little harder. I just need to decide if that is worth any sonic difference and make my choice of tradeoff.

EXCEPT, this approach assumes there is no further limiting in the signal chain from the point where the streamer's loudness penalty (or makeup gain) to the final listen. I don't know if this is true. For example, what if the streamer wants its service to sound louder overall, and so it introduces another gain stage and then limiting before sending to users? In that case, the artifacts introduced by the streamer's limiting might be worse than if I had just driven Maxim a little harder and done the limiting myself. So I guess my question is: does anyone know whether all full-scale peaks pass through the streamer's processing untouched or whether there is any additional limiting there? I have seen engineers in a number of forums recommend mastering with peak levels at -2dB. I can't think of any reason for this recommendation unless there is some limiting on the streamer's end that would trim the tops off of signals above this point.

[sslechta]

Good information. I've actually run my songs against the website of the same name. It shows the results of what the song would be like on various platforms like YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, etc. Each platform has specific settings that will determine whether they have to clamp your music down. As long as my song is a few tenths under 0 dB on a platform, I'm happy.

LOUDNESS PENALTY: ANALYZER

[nednednerb]

The Audio Engineering Society, the group of "us" who are audio engineers and scientists have collaborated on a set of standards used for aligning and maintaining a coherent set of workflows and products:

https://www.google.com/search?q=loudness%2018%2014+site:aes.org


It's not good enough, for many of us, to simply "fight the loudness war".

Instead we must turn down the loudness. Ethical and health-related points: our music and environments have become loud enough that the next generation of young people growing up will experience a greater degree of hearing loss and hearing loss related problems.

Instead, we really should turn things down. Spotify might still want to play -14 or -11 LUFS Integrated levels or whatever, and it MIGHT be kind of reasonable when using a cell phone as your speaker system.

However, movie theatre is typically -23 LUFS, it seems that "music is louder" but when you leave it up loud, such as a club audio system, the brain kicks into gear with its own compression people notice as the underwater type sound sensing when they leave a loud venue. This is bad for us, as audio engineers, because we are in a business of making things to hear. Deafness has ethical importance, and some set standards for loudness are good for the group.

-18 LUFS for "dialogue" / -14 LUFS for "music" - these are near the AES standards currently. A few streamers are delivering music at higher volume. Competing with levels causing hearing damage is not worth it.

AES actually said -18/ -14 LUFS for program streamed material and even suggested -9 dB Full Scale peaks or so, because THEN you avoid the loudness penalty without your peaks being warped (changes felt impact of notes, monophonic level experience). You just get turned up a few dB or down, without any limiting maybe.

[sslechta]

Great insights and information, thanks!

[MrDibS]

Then there are the millions, if not billions, of tracks on the streaming services that were mastered well before streaming services were even imagined let alone this bizarre concept of mastering for lufs.

They all sound fine.

Is Led Zeppelin remastering their catalog for each service based on loudness penalty? I assure you they are not.

If it's too loud they'll turn it down. It's not a big deal.

[nednednerb]

Originally Posted by MrDibS

Then there are the millions, if not billions, of tracks on the streaming services that were mastered well before streaming services were even imagined let alone this bizarre concept of mastering for lufs.

They all sound fine.

Is Led Zeppelin remastering their catalog for each service based on loudness penalty? I assure you they are not.

If it's too loud they'll turn it down. It's not a big deal.

One room:

Everyone enjoying music.

Another room:

"Hey, turn it up!"
"Hey, now it's too loud!"
"Turn it down!"
"Who mastered this?"


LOL

Loudness can tell you more about "when" it was mastered