Percussion

[Felix the Cat]

I'm using MixPlus on a BW G3. Fairly new system to me.

The issue is drums. Currently, I write drum patterns in MIDI which addresses an old EMU Proteus-1. All works well but:

1. I am a writer/guitarist/pianist - not a drummer, so my drum parts are passable only for writing or demo purposes.

2. The old samples in the EMU just don't cut it unless I return them via an Aux and TDM the hell out of them.

SO, I SURE COULD USE SUGGESTIONS REGARDING:

1. Best way to have a library of great sounding drum PATTERNS (not just single hits)available. I'd need to be able to apply them to various tempos and to cut and paste to add fills, etc. where appropriate.

2. Do I simply get something (what?) like the old DrumTrax software (drum patterns in lotsa different styles) and a better sound module?

3. Do I buy Drum Loop CDs, bring them in as audio and go through the tedious task of separating the kick, snare, etc. onto separate tracks and then tempo adjusting to the song?

4. My local Digi dealer suggests Soft SampleCell (I don't have PCI slot available for SampleCell ll - nor do I want to invest in an expansion chassis and a $1000 program/card just for drums), but he knows little to nothing about this product.

5. I am totally in the dark as to software samplers and synths as I've always used Midi (with my minimal drum writing or DrumTrax patterns)addressing outboard modules. Is Soft SampleCell the way to go - at least initially? The Digi product info sheet is quite shallow on Soft SampleCell, at least for a neophite in this area - as I am!!

Thanks!!
I really NEED and APPRECIATE any help in this area!

Felix

[Dopamine]

I hate pc's and don't have time to elaborate, but you may want to do some research on the Giga Studio/Sampler.

[jackruston]

You could consider sample cds such as double platinum drums. The sounds are generally rock based and free of processing. You could maybe use recycle to cut them up quickly and manipulate them, then process however you want. If you want sounds which are already processed consider the liquid grooves groove control cd (or metamorphosis for a more future sound). These are already cut up and triggered but accompanying midi files. You can change tempo and swing etc. They work very well and are extremely good...But they're a certain style...you'd have to check out the demos on the ilio site to see if they'd work for you. If you want to create really personalised stuff...applying your own processing etc they might not be ideal.

I find that protools midi timing is generally not tight enough for drum samples. I use logic to create audio files for import. If you wanted, you could just hook up a sampler via scsi, import a fixed loop into recycle and adjust the tempo there. Then save and import into pt.

If you want really good drum sounds from a synth the roland xv synths have a very cool drums board if you want natural drum sounds. You could do equally well with sample cds though as that is effectively what the drum board is.

Good luck
Jack

[lwilliam]

I also use Recycle 2.0 with various audio drum loop CDs (or those for my E5000). I have the Double Platinum Drums as well. They cover a nice "bread and butter" range of styles. I've also considered the NYC Drumworks, which also has some very nice loops.

You can slice up the loops in Recycle, change the tempo to match your song, and then save the loop as an sdii file and import.

Alternatively, if you have a SCSI-based sampler (don't know if it works with Soft SampleCell - but I think it does), then you can export the individual slices and create a midi file which will play back the loop at whatever midi tempo you have set in PT. When you're all set, record the output to an audio track.

[Felix the Cat]

Jack and LW,

Many thanks for your time and advice. I'll download some demos and go from there.

Thanks,

Felix

[Frank S]

To build on LWs comments: Recycle 2 and SSC work GREAT together - its a phenomenal combination. Recycle 2 can export SC instruments (really just slices from recycle on consecutive keys) and accompanying MIDI files, which you can then bring into PT if you'll be playing with tempo, OR you can just export your modified loops as SD2/AIFF files and import them directly in PT if you know what tempo you'll be working with and don't need to change it. The only major downside of Recycle is that even if you import a 24 bit file, it only exports the output to 16 bit, so you have to import and convert back to get into a 24bit PT session.

The combination of Recycle and SSC has made my drum loop libraries exciting again. Recycle does tend to work better when your speeding or slowing things by about 10 to 20%, as radical changes are usually more perceptible and unnatural - but better than most time compression plugs I've demo'd. It has some sonic mangling capabilities as well, and can do some interesting processing like faux reverse and pseudo synth drums - nice touch.

I also like Double Platinum drums (that LA sound), and also Phil Gould on Drums and Gota Yashiki for slightly more edgy funky stuff.

If you need mega-realistic and more mixing flexibility in your drums, check out Multiloops or Discrete Drums - both offer seperate mixable drum kits in loop format, with the former being already formated in a PT session. I wasn't blown away by the drum sounds of ML, but its a nice if the sound/style suits you and you need more control than loops provide.

Can you tell that I can't find a good drummer?

[Felix the Cat]

Frank, Thanks....
Sounds like a wide range of possibilities!
I just took a break from massive cutting (spelled "cussing") and pasting some audio drum tracks to separate the various elements of the kit as that seems (emphasis on the seems),in my neophite method of working on percussion, to be the best way to control the kick vs. snare, etc sounds.

Do you know of anyone in the Seattle area who would (for $) consult with and help me set up the sort of system you and LW are talking about? I'm experienced at audio recording and "old time" Midi recording (you know - where you trigger notes with a controller and on playback various sound modules are addressed - apparently 1900 technology). But I am very new and totally untested in the areas you guys seem very familiar with.

I can find some good drummers, but often not on the fly at 3am or often not ones who want to listen while they play - know what I mean??? Actually after about a million years of playing, I've found "listeners" to be few and far between. Sheet - I've really gone off on a tangent.

Anyway, thanks - let me know if you have ideas RE: consultants. And thanks again for the input!

Felix

[tubajay]

FWIW,

I have NYC drumworks, and do like the variety, and it's recorded quite well. Sometimes I'll use Clearmountain SCII drums, but only for powerful, forceful samples. I find libraries are always hit and miss, and even if you add fills, build breaks etc. - it still can't touch the groove of a good drummer. For no BS groove, loops can rock - if you're trying for an emotional/dynamic performance, you'll have to work 10 times as hard - and finally come to the conclusion: I shoulda used a "real" drummer?!?!?!??!? YMMV

Jay
PlugHead Productions

[lwilliam]

I forgot I also have the Gota audio CD. I used a loop on a song about a year ago.

Good description, Frank: "edgy and funky"...but definitely not "bread and butter".

I also just bought the "Black Butta" vol 1 CD and am using a loop on a song I'm currently working on. I'd call it more pop/hip-hop with an R&B influence.

If you can find a copy of L.A. Riot Vol 1, it has some great rock drum loops (so does Double Platinum Drums).

An inexpensive solution might also be Recycle with some of the VST Sessions. I have 3 or 4 of the VST Session volumes. They're very simple patterns which can be loaded into Recycle (they already come as REX files - which is native to Recycle). You wouldn't even have to chop them up (they're pre-chopped) and they're set up with a standard song format: intro, verse, chorus, etc., including endings.

You only get 20 "songs" per disk, but the disks are pretty inexpensive.
http://www.steinberg.net/products/ae...ns/index.phtml

As Jay says, NOTHING can touch the feel and dynamics of a real (good) drummer. I also know a very good session drummer in L.A. who can take your tracks and add live drums to them for a very reasonable price. It's best if you have recorded to a click track and have an ADAT to transfer tapes back and forth, but there are also other ways. (Used ADATs go for $600 or less these days). If that is of any interest, email me for details.

[ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: lwilliam ]