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  #1  
Old 11-06-2007, 09:11 PM
doubtful guest doubtful guest is offline
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Default it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

Hi DUC people, I was wondering if anyone is using protools midi for sequencing drums tracks?
Is it possible to get something close to sample accuracy?
The last time I tried(several pt versions ago) I would get very bad timing errors regardless of what midi devices(external drum machines, reason rewire, etc) or hardware settings were used. I've gone back to using an MPC or linn9000 externally, but I'd really like to find something that integrates better with protools.
thanks!
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:50 PM
Graham Hinton Graham Hinton is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

No. Not with a USB interface and not with OSX MIDI. You'll be lucky to get events within 2ms of where they should be and with quantised errors of the same order. It is not Pro Tools fault, that is the system it gets to use and it is not up to the job. Go back to OS 9 and FreeMIDI (emulating OMS) and you'll get 0.5ms accuracy using a serial port.
The only way that MIDI could be improved now is with a dedicated FireWire interface chip and bypassing the shoddy OSX MIDI. That is not going to happen, nobody cares. Just record the sound and correct it, that's what everybody else does.
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Old 11-08-2007, 06:44 AM
accession accession is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

Quote:
You'll be lucky to get events within 2ms of where they should be
Isn't the MIDI spec limited to around 1ms per MIDI event?

So 2ms (allowing for OS, USB, and latency from the MIDI device on the receiving end) sounds quite good to me.

When the CPU isn't under full steam running plug-ins, MIDI timing has never been an issue for me. However, when the going gets tough, the slop gets going.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:29 AM
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DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

Quote:

Isn't the MIDI spec limited to around 1ms per MIDI event?
That's correct - due to the serial nature of MIDI, the more MIDI events you have going on, the more likely it is that timing accuracy will get worse. You can alleviate some of that by getting a MIDI interface that supports time-stamping with the audio application you're using (currently, only the MIDI IO will do this with Pro Tools).

While time-stamping can improve MIDI timing, it's not a catch-all. Any time you're sending a lot of MIDI data down a cable, it's going to decrease accuracy. All that time-stamping does is 'pre-cache' the MIDI data at the MIDI interface so that it can then be transmitted more accurately. Without time-stamping, MIDI events are tied to the computer clock - which, if it gets busy doing other things, can cause some timing inaccuracies. While time-stamping can improve accuracy between the computer and the MIDI interface, it cannot overcome the inherent limits on transmission speeds between the MIDI interface and your device, or your devices accuracy when playing back incoming MIDI data.

The best way to keep timing accurate is to limit the amount of MIDI data that any particular device is receiving at any one time. Filtering any non-essential messages can improve timing quite considerably.
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Old 11-08-2007, 05:18 PM
filosofem filosofem is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

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(currently, only the MIDI IO will do this with Pro Tools).
...and the Mbox 2 Pro for us LE users.






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Old 11-10-2007, 05:52 AM
accession accession is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

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Quote:
(currently, only the MIDI IO will do this with Pro Tools).
...and the Mbox 2 Pro for us LE users.


But sadly not my AMT8 despite previously statements by Digidesign suggesting otherwise.

Anyone want to buy an AMT8?



Having said that, now I have an MPB, the MB2Pro is kinda appealing...
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:26 AM
filosofem filosofem is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

accession, long time no speak, I, the MB2P is quite the pocket rocket, I'm really glad I brought the thing when they first came out, she can throw a punch or two, though I'll point out that any external clocking above 48k is a no go.

Oh, and Footswitch is now supported with 7.4.










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Old 11-22-2022, 12:59 PM
jeffbruckner jeffbruckner is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

Midi timing has been an issue, easily corrected / reduced by avoiding 'daisy chaining'
and other simple techniques.

Protools is the worst system available, procured and marketed by Digidesign
in the same way as Apple.

Requiring a ground up rebuild, it has consistantly dissapointed users, and presented the worst interface, inability to provide basic tasks, limited interfacing , bespoke peripherals - unreliable system ingetration, unsupported previous version compatibility, incomprehensible syntax, fickle introduction and removal of software -( plugin format VST RTAS AAX) / hardware - ( Firewire etc).

Conclusion - Expensive / unreliable / to be avoided.
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  #9  
Old 11-25-2022, 03:58 PM
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albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

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Originally Posted by jeffbruckner View Post
Midi timing has been an issue, easily corrected / reduced by avoiding 'daisy chaining'
and other simple techniques.

Protools is the worst system available, procured and marketed by Digidesign
in the same way as Apple.

Requiring a ground up rebuild, it has consistantly dissapointed users, and presented the worst interface, inability to provide basic tasks, limited interfacing , bespoke peripherals - unreliable system ingetration, unsupported previous version compatibility, incomprehensible syntax, fickle introduction and removal of software -( plugin format VST RTAS AAX) / hardware - ( Firewire etc).

Conclusion - Expensive / unreliable / to be avoided.
Interesting as I have had almost zero issues with Midi in Pro Tools going all the way back to LE6.1. Even with my most complicated setup with a Yamaha Motif es8, Roland TD-10 and a 3rd midi keyboard all working at once(3 instrument tracks in record with Superior Drummer, MiniGrand and either DB-33 or LoungeLizard's Wurly with 2 keyboard players. I totally agree on avoiding daisy-chaining as midi latency is accumulative.
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:40 AM
Robruce Robruce is offline
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Default Re: it it possible to get tight midi timing in protools?

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Originally Posted by doubtful guest View Post
Hi DUC people, I was wondering if anyone is using protools midi for sequencing drums tracks?

snipppppp

but I'd really like to find something that integrates better with protools.
thanks!
Ventura - PT 2022.10 (host based) - M1 Mini - UA Apollo

VI drums using Superior Drummer

PT is a computer-based audio recorder that added MIDI late in the game. Many other DAWs alive today are the reverse. MIDI and it's claim on the clocking in PT/CPU(?) is an afterthought perhaps. Tons of posts on the DUC about how loose and unsteady it is.

Here usually it's best to get the MIDI tracks 'sketched' first, and commit them to audio early on knowing there may be a need to later edit the MIDI performance and re-record the audio as a session fills in.

One thing practiced here is to never change the Global MIDI Offset at all. After recording PT's click with varying GMO settings, you'll notice the recorded audio of PT's own click falls either before or after the bar lines.

Why a user would want the click (which defines the very pulse of music) to ever shift off the bar lines is hard to grok - MIDI or no MIDI - but perhaps there are some workflows, setups or tasks where it's helpful. It does nothing to make things any easier when syncing live Midi and audio performances here at least.

The MIDI I/O 'alignment' procedure here is to create a new session, determine it's clock rate, clock source, H/W buffer, delay compensation (off or on). Zero plugins for starts.

Next select a sharp/ short sound on the target synth/sampler/VI, then create a very short MIDI note on/off event in PT (maybe 50 ticks) to trigger that sound. Generate at least two measure of it and quantize it at 100%, also standardize velocity and duration.

Next record the hardware or VI audio triggered by PT's MIDI and afterwards examine where that recorded audio falls relative to the bar lines.

Then in the MIDI Track Offsets window, use only individual instrument offsets to straighten out timing per instrument.

Virtual Instruments generally do not exhibit MIDI-audio timing issues to the same degree as hardware, but monitoring your live VI performance via a virtual channel typically eliminates any lag time and makes for nearly negligible input/audio latency.

Naturally as a session grows with delay-inducing plugins, especially on the Master fader, timing issues arise with MIDI vs. audio, which Automatic Delay Compensation can correct up to a certain point.

Wish it were not the case, but PT has always been more of a recording platform than one designed for 'electronic' music creation.
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