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  #1  
Old 12-23-2022, 05:53 PM
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songwritersoul songwritersoul is offline
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Default How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

Hi,
I'm not new to PT, but I am new to the concept of playing live through amp/cab sims in PT and having it come out of my monitors AND come out of my monitors without a noticeable delay.

I see these damn Youtubers playing live through all these amp and cab IR's all the time, but I've yet to be able to figure out how to do it with my PT HDX rig.

FWIW, I'm on PT11 using an HD16 io.

So, can it be done or is this only achievable by using a different DAW with different drivers?

Thanks and happy holidays,
Steve
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Old 12-23-2022, 06:27 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

If you are staying in the AAX/HDX DSP domain and never going to a AAX native plugin then you don't have any HW buffer latency and are only at the mercy of any inherent processing latency in the HDX DSP plugins plus whatever input and output conversion latency. But I'll bet if latency is horrible you are combining AAX HDX/DSP and AAX native plugins (with native plugins after DSP ones) and have a large H/W buffer size, and Pro Tools is doing exactly what is expected in that case.

The main issue to pay attention to is the latency added by invoking a native plugin with HDX DSP, and plugin ordering, and that has been asked about and explained many times on DUC, and is well explained in the Pro Tools Reference Guide (whole section titled "Inserting Native and DSP Plug-Ins on Tracks (HDX Systems Only)").

What exact latency do you expect? What exact latency are you getting? You should be able to record that back (get tricky to measure with delay comp but there are ways) and measure to a few samples accuracy. An accurate measurement there often helps identify what is going on.

You should either be able to find manufactures specs for plugin latencies and interface input/conversion latency or be able to show delay compensation values in the Mix window and insert plugins noting the delay comp change, (which don't include the input and output conversion latency). I for example get a few sample internal plugin latency with Eleven Mk II plugins (used natively) plus the latency from 64 sample size H/W buffer @ 96 kHz plus the conversion latency (and the IO latency for me running native is input conversion time + 2 x H/W buffer latency + output conversion time, if you stay HDX it is only input conversion time + output conversion time), which for me all adds up to a few ms. So I don't have any issues. No different than a guitar amp cab being some feet away.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 12-23-2022 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 12-24-2022, 10:06 AM
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songwritersoul songwritersoul is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

All of the amp/cab sims I have are aax native and not running on the Avid dsp. Unless I've missed something, I can't have a live input in PT running through a native plugin. I can record a DI track, then go back and "reamp" the track through whatever amp/cab sims I want, but can't play live through a native plugin. So how are the Youtubers doing it?
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Old 12-24-2022, 12:28 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

Quote:
Originally Posted by songwritersoul View Post
All of the amp/cab sims I have are aax native and not running on the Avid dsp. Unless I've missed something, I can't have a live input in PT running through a native plugin. I can record a DI track, then go back and "reamp" the track through whatever amp/cab sims I want, but can't play live through a native plugin. So how are the Youtubers doing it?
I gave you an example of perfectly well workable native latency numbers.

You can have a live input running though a native plugin, but then you need to reduce the HW buffer size and live with the latency.... which as in the example I gave for my native system that is a handful of ms, no different than a practice/monitor amp being a few feet away (1ms ~ 1ft). Guitar players should not have the problem of headphone/head effects/comb filtering problems vocalists and some other instrument players have. Put a full range monitor speaker near you and crank the guitar monitoring volume sufficiently so it's like a real amp.

OTOH you could also find AAX DSP amp sims and monitor through them, even if you want to later reamp though native sims. Starting with the obvious Eleven Mk II but many others out there.

But again. What latency are you getting (preferably in sample @ sample rate)? And what latency do you expect to get for your H/W buffer size, interface and plugins used? You've not even mentioned what H/W buffer size you are using or specific plugins. Create a trivial one track session and measure stuff, or at least see what delay comp reports for plugin latency. If it's huge you are likely doing something wrong. But stop talking about it and actually investigate/solve the problem. Ask for help if needed but you need to produce numbers/more info.
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Old 12-24-2022, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

The example you gave doesn't work on my system. I don't know how it is on native systems or other DAW's, but on my HDX set up, if I have a native plugin on a track and I hit the input button to play guitar through it etc., the plug in turns grey and no processing takes place on the input signal.
The ONLY way I've found to hear an AAX native plugin while playing live is to put the plug in on an aux track and route the live input through that aux. This causes a blatant latency that isn't worth measuring because it's too long to be useable. Probably 20-30ms at least.
If you can even get signal to pass through, and be processed by a native plugin with a live input, you're one step ahead of me. I haven't found this to be possible with my rig.

thanks
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Old 12-24-2022, 01:01 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

You need to understand how to use native and HDX plugins together while monitoring. I pointed you at the specific section in the Pro Tools reference guide that explains how to do that, please go read that. (You need to have a HDX DSP plugin at the start of each plugin chain where you want to monitor through native plugins - this is basic HDX stuff, so please read everything in that section).

Or you know, track with HDX DSP plugins, which makes this less to think about.

The very high latency you see from the aux will likely be 1024 or 2048 (or a multiple?) samples (and it *is* worth measuring if stuck as close multiples of 1024 or 2048 samples etc. show what is going on), aka the high latency domain or "disk playback" buffer which is 1024 or 2048 samples depending on sample rate. This is the buffer (unlike H/W buffer) that you don't get to set the size of. This is expected behavior, but trips folks up all the time. Don't use aux to do this, learn how to use Pro Tools HDX properly.

Last edited by Darryl Ramm; 12-24-2022 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12-24-2022, 08:10 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Weed View Post
This is expected behavior. You have turned on Input Monitoring on the Track. You are only going to hear the Input signal.
Uh no be careful, that's not what Steve is saying. Input monitoring is not the issue, he wants to input monitor, he is input monitoring, but he wants to do so through native plugins on a HDX system, which is entirely possible with the right plugin ordering.
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Old 12-25-2022, 11:11 AM
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

Hi Darryl, Merry Christmas!

I apologize, you are, as usual, correct and I've deleted my post. Either a brain cramp or I was thinking of something else. Your post did help me find a routing problem in TotalMix I didn't know I had.

What's curious to me is this from the OP, "if I have a native plugin on a track and I hit the input button to play guitar through it etc., the plug in turns grey and no processing takes place on the input signal."

That sounds like the plug-in becomes disabled when Input Monitoring is used on that Track. I only have Studio, not Ultimate, but that doesn't happen for me when I turn on Input Monitoring. Any idea why he would be seeing that behavior?

I do use plug-ins on an Aux, but they induce very little latency and I record at 64 buffer.
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  #9  
Old 12-25-2022, 12:03 PM
Darryl Ramm Darryl Ramm is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

HDX needs a DSP plugin at the head of the plugin chain ahead of any native plugins otherwise it disables the native plugins on any signal path with a live input. The reason why you'll see Trim plugins inserted at the top of chains. That is totally working as designed, and is how HD TDM operates as well. It's something that you have to be aware of/leverage with Pro Tools DSP systems. Again the section of the reference guide I pointed to covers this.

The 1024/2048 disk IO buffer latency can crop up depending on routing, especially when folks are using sends/Aux. Some of those can be cleaned up and made to work with less complex routing. But here it's not worth debugging what is going on, just use the plugins on the input track.

There are also known bugs in delay compensation, with one that can hit with LLM at least on Pro Tools native systems, that produce 1024 or 2048 sample delays that I and others have discussed on DUC. Avid has had enough info to reproduce and hopefully fix that bug for several months so I hope to see some progress there. That one bug I'm thinking of *might* also be happening here (but I don't have a HDX system to test on). But again, (and the reason I did not even mention the possible bug here) it's not worth worrying about, just use HDX with the plugins on the audio track. Simpler is better.

And yes I don't use TDM/HDX and like you my head spends much if it's time in TotalMix
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Old 12-27-2022, 04:38 PM
GoButtonGuy GoButtonGuy is offline
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Default Re: How to play live into PT with amp/cab sims

For pro players that play live with plugs and sims but aren’t tracking they generally don’t use Pro Tools. What I see the most of is Live or Mainstage though some go high buck and use an Axe FX. We’ve got one guy tracking and/or playing through an Apollo. You can do in Pro Tools. Follow what Darryl says and play around a bit to find the sweet spot.
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