If not TDM, then what?

[ianmiller]

Sadly, I think I may need to get off the TDM bandwagon as the cost of going to HD and plug upgrades for my home studio is just a little too much. The apparent lack of ongoing support for Mix hardware on G5 and Panther is the catalyst for this decision.

If I sell my MixPlus and C24 system I could fund a decent native system - but want multiple inputs (for 6 synths) and no/little latency for tracking guitar and vocals. Currently I work without a mixer and use the C24 for everything. I use Logic and PT.

If anyone has a killer recommendation for hardware to consider I would be grateful.

I am think perhaps a Digi002 rack, Mackie Control as the core of the system. What kind of latency would I have with that? Would tracking through a mixer be better? Does Digi002's drivers work well with Logic?

I also could think about the new Digi control surface as it implies other sequencer support - anyone think it will support Logic or is that a stretch?

Anyway, apologies as this is a tad off thread, but I wanted to ask TDM'ers their opinion. Final questions, is will I regret this big time? I tend to overdub everything myself, rarely need more than 16 tracks and have modest plug in useage. I love my set up but......

- again input gratefully received.

[Ask Otis]

I am in the same boat as you. I have Mix now and I cannot justify the expense of the upgrade to HD. However I have set up for some of my friends the native systems. Including mbox, 001, and 002 rack systems and the Mix TDM is still better. More stable, less latency, more like a studio than software emulating a studio. Even on a fairly good computer the native system does not have the same good feelings as TDM.

Even when I go from the LE6.x with all the nice little features and then going to TDM 5.1.1/OS9 I am happier and much more comfortable on the older system. It seems we will get one more revision out of Digi before they cut us Mix guys off so I am gonna hold out a little longer. Plus, if you can get another year out of your current setup, the native computer you buy will be even more powerful and faster.

TDM works, native makes you work. Every time I use a native system I feel like I have traveled back in time to the days before I bought the MIX and then I remember why I was willing to pay the money in the first place.

[DC11]

I hear ya. I've been toying with the idea of upgrading to HD for quite awhile. Every month or so, I change my mind again. Now, I'm back on the "Yes I upgrade" kick, and this time I may go for it. The reason being: The $2499 upgrade from Mix24, and since it's only going till July, I need to make a move quickly. I've even considered going to 002 and then saving the money from selling my Mix24 and interface. We'll see how that goes till next month when I change my mind again.

[Tubz]

Ok. I hate latency more than anything. That's why I have to soundcards with zero (yes, 0) latency. (recordinglatency, that is) An mbox for protools and a nuendo audiolink 96 with dsp for routing, to go with logic. With logic I can record and route I/O whithout latency and it works as a dream. Very stable. I do NOT recommend working seriously in logic with digi's soundcards.
When I work in protools I see it like this: The recordingquality is ok for me. I always mix serious things in a recording studio with lots of highend outboard. The LE limitations has workarounds. Just finished a track with 95 tracks. Three different sessions and alittle bouncing will do it. And when I mix, I just import alltracks from the different sessions. I am very happy with this setup and I won't upgrade this native setup for many years. It's perfect for me to composing/tracking and producing.

Best regards,

Tubz

[hurdy gurdy]

ianmiller wrote:
"I think perhaps a Digi002 rack, Mackie Control as the core of the system. What kind of latency would I have with that?"

It depends a lot on the (general) size of your sessions and what kind of CPU your going to be pushing the 002R with.
With my home system I have 002R with a control suface and I'm fairly content with the latency issue and overall performance. I can record with very little latency- but when mixing and processing starts things can get sloppy and thus the playback engine and buffering might need adjusting.
However, my sessions are usually pretty lean (the way I like 'em) and if you do get into heavy sessions such as high track count, plugs and automation density -at high sample rates with a border-line computer- things start to go downhill and the latency/performance hit can be very significant. With my system when I run a 24 bit/96K session things start to get sluggish very fast -but I have an older G4 .
But, with one of those decked out G5's (even a nice G4) and a 002R you have a great home/project system that is very usable.
Good Luck!
L.A.Branville
PS. I'm not sure about 3rd party software with Digi hardware or if the new controller will work with other packages.
Moreover, if a person can spring for "high end" conversion on a 002R your sounding, and looking, really great (even though stock conversion really aint that bad).

[Matt Stutter]

You can use your control24 with LE. According to digi's selling page - never seen it myself... But apparently..

I'm also thinking the same about my MIX system - I can't see the justification price wise to upgrade to HD. Even though those deals are good, they're still expensive. I just dunno if an LE system would cut it for me though. Mainly I'm editing for film/tv - but I mix a few TV shows too (lifestyle magazine type shows) and I don't think I'd have the grunt in LE.. I've got a dual 1Ghz G4. I just feel more solid on a TDM system... I'd hate to see it bog down and skitter along in LE with the picture dropping frames etc...

Who knows, maybe if LE had a surround mixer that might make me try it (not that I'm using surround now, but I'd like to for my next film project).

Plugins are truck loads cheaper on LE too...

[brokemusician]

Digi got a little too big headed on the whole HD thing. What the hec were they thinking... oh yea lets put out a new system that costs everyone 20k to upgrade and we'll make a fortune, but they miscalaulated and it has cost them. Not enough people switched over because of the high cost and now everytime they make a new upgrade the huge customer base of mix users aren't purchasing anything; they basicaly lost their biggest contributors by getting too greedy. It's the year 2004, digidesign is awesome but lets face it native power is here and it would be foolish for anyone to sink that kind of jack unless they can afford to throw it away because in 2 short years HD won't be worth much. My advice to mix users, hold on a little bit longer because HD will go by the wayside very soon in favor of native whatever. The writting is on the wall and even or especially digidesign knows this and are planning for it. Let them stop supporting mix users, HD is just around the corner.

[DC11]

I may sound like moron on for this, but what is a "Native" system. I keep hearing about it.

[John Wilkinson]

Sadly, I think I may need to get off the TDM bandwagon as the cost of going to HD and plug upgrades for my home studio is just a little too much. The apparent lack of ongoing support for Mix hardware on G5 and Panther is the catalyst for this decision.

If I sell my MixPlus and C24 system I could fund a decent native system - but want multiple inputs (for 6 synths) and no/little latency for tracking guitar and vocals. Currently I work without a mixer and use the C24 for everything. I use Logic and PT.

If anyone has a killer recommendation for hardware to consider I would be grateful.

I am think perhaps a Digi002 rack, Mackie Control as the core of the system. What kind of latency would I have with that? Would tracking through a mixer be better? Does Digi002's drivers work well with Logic?

I also could think about the new Digi control surface as it implies other sequencer support - anyone think it will support Logic or is that a stretch?

Anyway, apologies as this is a tad off thread, but I wanted to ask TDM'ers their opinion. Final questions, is will I regret this big time? I tend to overdub everything myself, rarely need more than 16 tracks and have modest plug in useage. I love my set up but......

- again input gratefully received.

I completely understand. I sold my G4 (MDD) 1GHz DP and Mix Plus (888/24&882/20) a few weeks ago and got about $5300 (G4-1200, Mix Plus-2900, 888-900, 882-300). I have since replaced it with a G5/2GHz DP, Digi 002 Rack, and a Nuendo 8i/o (G5-2600 from Apple refurb site, 400 in RAM and an extra S-ATA internal drive, 002R-1000, Nuendo 8i/o 48k-700) and I’ve got about $500 left over. I use Logic Platinum (Pro) 6.3.2 and PTLE. I’ve got 16 inputs with this which gives me more than enough. Latency is NOT an issue. People who say it is are in 1 of 3 catergories.

• They have never tried a native system (or did years ago)
• They read in Electronic Musician that it is a problem with anything other than TDM
• They feel the need to justify to others (or themselves) the fact that they dropped $10-15k on a system that does less than you can with a native system costing a third of the price

In Logic I use mostly software synthesisers. I still have a Yamaha P-300, Waldorf XT, Roland JP-8080 and a few others as well. The power from this system surpasses my previous system by a factor of 3 or 4. That’s right, this system with the new G5 is about 4 times more than I had from the Mix Plus. Figure you have (12) DSP chips with a MixPlus. Use 33 tracks and you are down to 9. You know the drill, the INEFFICIENT use of power in TDM world.

Bottom line. If you need more than 32 tracks in ProTools, LE won’t do it. If that limitation is not an issue (like with Logic) then the PTLE 002 Rack system I am currently using could do the trick for you. I told a Digi rep at one of those DigiWorld showcase deals that Digi was missing the boat in not offering a mid-level product. He did not understand. I explained that many people (like myself) including PRO level programmers, producers (doing MASTER records) do not need the HD system and will not spend the money because they are not MIXING records. I explained that you should be able to combine (2) 002/002R units. He said that those peoplw would just purchase HD systems. I told him that people are not debating over $2k(2 002 units) or $15k(HD3XL). They are simply staying with the $1k system (002) or even worse for Digi, they are getting used Mix systems and Digi earns no money from them. They are simply stupid and don’t get it.

End of diatribe.

I sold my Mix+ system because the power of my new system is much greater, AND I didn’t want to wake up one day and read “Digidesign no longer supports the Mix hardware and it will not run on the current crop of G5 computers” In other words you’re f***ed.

I currently use a Mackie Control Universal as my hardware controller of choice. If you need a talkback, I’d go with the MCU and the new Presonus Control Station with remote. If talkback is not an issue, the new Command 8 is a nice looking piece. Whether or not it will work with Logic (or how well) remains to be seen.

Sounds like the 32 tracks will not be an issue. If it’s me, I’d dump the Mix+. Oh wait, I already did.

I hope this helps you out.

[ianmiller]

Great post John - and very helpful. I would just like to follow up with a couple of questions. Your latency comments are very interesting. Do you record via a mixer, or is everything straight in and out of the 002R? If the latter, do you perceive latency when playing guitar into your system or is not an issue?

When you sold your system, was it ebay or some other vehicle?

Thanks again