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  #1  
Old 02-19-2007, 11:56 AM
storm-01 storm-01 is offline
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Default Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories please..

Next week I’ll be recording a concert harp and I’ve never recorded one before, so I was hoping to get some real life, tried and true experiences. I value everyone’s opinions, but for this post I want to hear from those who have actually recorded a concert harp with success and what mics you used and how/where you placed them. I’ve looked at some posts on the DUC, but my situation is slightly different. The musician will be by herself in a room about 20’X14’. She would also like to sing and play at the same time, but I will try to get her to record it separately.

Here’s the gear I have available:

MICS:

2- AKG 451s
2- SM81s
2- 414s
2- R-121s
2- Groove tubes GT55s
2- KSM 32s
1- AEA R84
2- K.E.L. audio HM-1s

PRES:

2- GT Vipres
2- Avalon 737s
6- API 512Cs
2- Chameleon Labs
1- Grace 101
Digi Pres


When you recorded the concert harp, did you use pencil/large dia. condenser mics, or a combo of both? Where did you place them in relation to the harp? Did you use room mics? Did you use ORTF, X/Y, stereo separation, etc? At what area on the harp did you face the mics towards? Ideally, I would like to get a stereo image of the harp from high to low.

To add another challenge to the mix, this lady would like to sing and play the harp at the same time, so I was thinking about using a large dia. mic in a figure eight; using the null point to my advantage. Thoughts? Ultimately I would like to have the playing and singing separate, but she’s always recorded everything live, so I want to make her comfortable. I'm going to try and convence her to sing and play separate.

I’ve done some research online, but I didn’t find the help I was looking for, so your advice is much appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2007, 01:25 PM
beacon of speed beacon of speed is offline
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Location: New York
Posts: 7
Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories please..

I've been on sessions with a harp a couple of times, and I believe that the harpists had a hole in the instrument that a mic was placed in. We used a 451 or some other small diaphragm condenser, sandwiched it between two pieces of foam, and wedged it in place. Since you're isolated, combine that with a room mike and you should be totally covered.
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2007, 02:05 PM
strider07 strider07 is offline
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Posts: 98
Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories please..

Quote:
She would also like to sing and play at the same time.
I've recorded harp... but not with the harpist singing at the same time. That's going to make things interesting!


Quote:
Ideally, I would like to get a stereo image of the harp from high to low.
So... you want the strings to pan across the stereo field on a low note to high note gliss? One would almost need to BE the harp to hear it in that way... If the harpist is singing too... are you planning to put the vocal in the center...? Or pan her voice to be in the same location as the high strings in the stereo field...?

Quote:
To add another challenge to the mix, this lady would like to sing and play the harp at the same time, so I was thinking about using a large dia. mic in a figure eight; using the null point to my advantage. Thoughts? Ultimately I would like to have the playing and singing separate, but she’s always recorded everything live, so I want to make her comfortable. I'm going to try and convence her to sing and play separate.

I’ve done some research online, but I didn’t find the help I was looking for, so your advice is much appreciated.
If she's singing and playing at the same time... I'd recommend a large diaphram condenser for her vocal up in the vicinity of her mouth and angled to reject as much harp as possible... you will still get plenty of harp in the vocal mic.

Then, I'd X/Y a pair of mics that you like on the harp... placed 3-4 feet to the side she is looking away from to get the strings, the sound board and some stereo gliss action... although I don't think the gliss/pan is going to be very pronounced.

If a super-wide stereo harp... low on one side, hi on the other side... is important to her, she will want to sing later. Then, her vocal can be in the center (at least that's where I would want to hear it...) without the hi string bleed messing with the image. I wouldn't record seperate room tracks unless the sound of the room is a part of the sound she wants. I'd add it later with processors of some kind.

I think the best thing you said is that you want to try to make her comfortable. If you do that, she will get a good recording... the rest of it all being equal.

This is going to get a million different answers ... this has been one of them. YMMV
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  #4  
Old 02-19-2007, 03:03 PM
storm-01 storm-01 is offline
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Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories plea

Quote:
I've been on sessions with a harp... the harpists had a hole in the instrument that a mic was placed in. We used a 451 or some other small diaphragm condenser, sandwiched it between two pieces of foam, and wedged it in place.


Interesting... have others used this placement? The question is, does this harp have that hole?




Quote:


So... you want the strings to pan across the stereo field on a low note to high note gliss? One would almost need to BE the harp to hear it in that way... If the harpist is singing too... are you planning to put the vocal in the center...? Or pan her voice to be in the same location as the high strings in the stereo field...?
Quote:





Yes, it would be "nice" to have somewhat of a stereo image. I wasn't going to pan hard left and right, but maybe a <50/50>. I was wondering if I used the 451s and pointed one at the far low end and the other at the far high end in an X/Y or ORTF, (of course facing the back of the harpist's head for minimal bleed) if maybe that would give me a little high to low sound from side to side?





... you will still get plenty of harp in the vocal mic.



This is what I'm afraid of. I think that she is unfamiliar with recording vocals separate and she's uncomfortable with the unknown. I would like to get her to try it separate for a cleaner result. This would also allow for more options in the end.





[/QUOTE]... although I don't think the gliss/pan is going to be very pronounced.

[/QUOTE]


Okay, hmmm... maybe my expectations are different than reality.
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  #5  
Old 02-19-2007, 04:45 PM
remainanon remainanon is offline
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Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories plea

You'll have plenty of harp in the vocal microphone, and that will be about 1/10th as irksome as the sound of her vocal through two off-axis cardioid microphones with 2-5 ms of delay, which is what you'll get if you put up an x-y setup.

Your idea of using a bi-directional or two on the harp, and facing the nulls toward your singer's mouth, has promise. Trying to reject harp in the vocal microphone will be tricky - and not terribly beneficial anyway; think about the awkwardness of having the microphone tucked in between the singer and her instrument - unless the harp is very tiny there is not much room there and you'd have to work hard not to be right in the way of things.

If I were you I'd also set up an MS pair, a few feet back, with the mid microphone pointing right at the singer. This might be a useful alternate - although without a doubt you're going to find it difficult to use the MS and the closer microphones at the same time.

The deal is, when you have someone singing and playing, it's the voice that gets hammered - by being noticeable in the instrument mikes. The effect can be subtle comb filtering, or not-so-subtle "enhancement" of sibilants. In any event the more you can reject the voice from the harp mikes, the better.

As for getting a great sound on the harp itself, my experience has been that a single SDC, about shoulder-height, parallel with the foot of the harp and pointing back toward the soundboard about mid-way, sounds great.

Take care to place the microphones with your player in action - the resting position of a concert harp is about 2 feet from where it's played!

HTH

JW
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  #6  
Old 02-19-2007, 05:03 PM
jeremyroberts jeremyroberts is offline
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Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 3,020
Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories plea

PLEASE excuse me for posting the obvious... but this is not going to be rocket science.
Sorry in advance for the rant.

In order of importance, your recording will be successful if:

1. great musician and great music
2. great sounding instrument
3. great room
--- at this point, you can only f it up ---
4. good microphones (pick-em, doesn't really matter, any top-shelf matched pair, if the room and player are in good shape)
5. intelligent mic placement -- see #3
6. good mic pre
7. engineer doesn't get in the way

I'm not trying to be an [bleep] - it just comes out that way. If the player, and the instrument and the room sound great, why not just capture it?

As for the singing - yeah, you want this to be an OD.

I've recorded harp countless times... and the good recordings are when the player was a pro in a great room. When the player wasn't a pro, there's not much you can do... except put lots of verb on it (and that would be the proverbial polishing the turd...)

Don't worry about panning. The room will make your stereo for you. Just capture it.

Honest -- I don't mean to come across like a jerk... but the best thing you can do as engineer is make sure the room sounds great. A great room will overcome most of the things that we can do to screw it up. There is nothing special about harp recording (as compared to piano, or guitar or tuba.) A great player in a good space and our job is to simply get out of the way.
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  #7  
Old 02-19-2007, 06:08 PM
ThomasPMusic ThomasPMusic is offline
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Posts: 189
Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories plea

Its really about being a photographer, rather than a painter. Really check the sound in the cutting room before going back behind the desk (or mouse).
I sometimes do the old "cover 1 ear" and walk around the harp and see where its projecting what frequencies. I'd stay nearer to the harp, or do 2 sets of mics. Watch out for the reflection off the music stand if used. Also, watch out for non-harp noises like chair squeeks, and clothing rubbing which can be bad. I actually had a few harpists that had pickups on the instruments (so they could play weddings, I guess) and when I used a good (radial) DI, it added a nice bit of clarity. Not at all like a DI acoustic guitar.
I'd also go for a clean and vibeless PRE (think grace, etc...) because harp has resonances that can without warning make a pre get crunchy. Kind of like recording a gong, where the level is 10 Db from clipping, but something is still distorted because of the harmonic richness.

Well, have fun.
tp
www.thomaspmusic.com
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  #8  
Old 02-19-2007, 06:08 PM
ThomasPMusic ThomasPMusic is offline
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Posts: 189
Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories plea

Its really about being a photographer, rather than a painter. Really check the sound in the cutting room before going back behind the desk (or mouse).
I sometimes do the old "cover 1 ear" and walk around the harp and see where its projecting what frequencies. I'd stay nearer to the harp, or do 2 sets of mics. Watch out for the reflection off the music stand if used. Also, watch out for non-harp noises like chair squeeks, and clothing rubbing which can be bad. I actually had a few harpists that had pickups on the instruments (so they could play weddings, I guess) and when I used a good (radial) DI, it added a nice bit of clarity. Not at all like a DI acoustic guitar.
I'd also go for a clean and vibeless PRE (think grace, etc...) because harp has resonances that can without warning make a pre get crunchy. Kind of like recording a gong, where the level is 10 Db from clipping, but something is still distorted because of the harmonic richness.

Well, have fun.
tp
www.thomaspmusic.com
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2007, 06:09 PM
mixx mixx is offline
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Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories please..

USE A 451 ON THE HARP..I recorded a number of string dates with harp and alawys used them..

I never cut a harp and vox together ..but if her head is off to the side as she sings I would try a large diaphram condenser in fig 8 for her vox

I 'd also put up a spaced pair for the room sound


if the crosstalk is real bad ..stick a mic in the hole with foam..it's not as good as outside miking but the isolation is great..
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  #10  
Old 02-19-2007, 09:08 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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Location: Wenatchee, WA, USA
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Default Re: Recording a CONCERT HARP? Success stories please..

I have sometimes had problems with mechanical noises such as pedals and wire cables running through the harp (harmonic curve....neck)...and tuning problems...this would be both string tension and cable adjustments to the sharpening levers causing out of tune notes when depressed. I would have Three-in-one oil on hand. Adjusting all this stuff is sometimes called "regulation"....ask when they last had this done. The talent sometimes breathes heavily. I would try to see if I could actually see and hear the talent play on the exact instrument prior to the session listening for these particular problems as they can sometimes become more important than other issues. Be almost touching the harp with your ear. Sometimes need to consider the floor...carpet....wood...and whether the chair needs to have a separate "floating" surface. The right and left sides of the harp often sound different...especially if the tuning "triangles" or "sharpening levers" are making sounds of their own. How old are the strings? Some strings only need to be changed once a year, others up to every four years. I've seen some players want to leave their instruments in the studio long before the date so that the harp can stabilize and the player can recover physically from hefting the instrument into your studio. If none of these points have anything to do with your recording then by all means experiment with all kinds of stereo techniques and close mic methods making sure that when collapsed to mono you still have correct volumes from all the strings.
I don't want you to think I an authority, because I'm not. On this kind of stuff my job is usually to pass out contracts and get sandwiches. I wish I had your opportunity!
Christopher Kimball

C.K.'s Musical Workshop
4090 West Eaglerock Drive
Wenatchee, WA 98801
[email protected]
509-667-0648
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C.K.'s Musical Workshop
4090 W. Eaglerock Drive
Wenatchee, WA 98801
509-667-0648
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