Upgrading my home studio

[AbjectEvolution]

Here are my current recording studio specs:

COMPUTER:
AMD Athlon XP 1.9ghz Processor
768MB Ram
300GB Hard Drive
M-Audio Delta 66 Soundcard

SPEAKERS:
Alesis M1 Active Powered Monitors

MIXER:
Behringer Eurotrack MX1804X

PROGRAMS:
Acid Pro 5.0 (for recording)
FL Studio 6 (for click tracks and such before getting the live drums recorded)

Now then....

Over the past year of using this setup, some things have bothered me to the point of needing to upgrade. First of all, I get alot of pops and clicks in my audio. I've extensivly looked into this problem and have figured out to aleviate it mostly, but it's still there. Then there is the fact that distorted guitar once recorded, sounds muddy and just... bad. I've attributed this to my mixer, as anyone I talk to about it tells me that it's complete crap... and that I also need a better program.

So I'm looking to purchase a better program and a better mixer. I've had my eye on pro tools for a while. I've been trying to read as much as I can about it, but I'd like to get some feedback here before making my decision. I use Fruity Loops for click tracks and basic drums before getting the live drums recorded, and I hear you can't use that with Pro Tools? I hear that Pro Tools is very limiting in what other companies' programs you can use with it. Is this true?

I know there are other options (I do own a PC though, not a MAC) and honestly... I don't really know much about any of my options. I know that alot of the musicians I look up to use Pro Tools, and that's about it. I'm not even 100% fluent in Acid Pro... which for some reason, feels limiting to me... even though I don't know what I'm doing sometimes. Regardless, I've managed really well... as I run the home studio for my band and we've recorded some good quality stuff with my limitations.

Anyway, I'd like to know what the differences are between Acid Pro, Pro Tools, and some of the other options I could look at.

Also, I'd like some suggestions on a good 14-16 track mixer. I've been looking at a 14 track Mackie, how are those?

Thanks for any help anyone can give me!

[MDog]

More info, please.

What alleviated the "clicks and pops"? What is your method for recording distorted guitar? Miked amp? Plugin? Reamp? Modeling box? What guitar are you using?

The Behringer gear is much derided, but I've found that the biggest problem with it isn't necessarily the sound, but the build quality. Play a CD through it and what does it sound like to YOU, not the people you've talked to?

Pro Tools LE and M-Powered is a little more limited than most of the other major platforms out there. The biggest thing going for it is that you can readily go between a "big" studio and your home studio with a minimum of hassle. Also, knowing the Pro Tools interface can only be helpful as you go forward.

Mackie mixers are derided as much as Behringers, but by the next level of gear snobs. They're fine mixers, but you're always going to find somebody who tells you its crap. No matter what the piece of gear is.

Why do you need a mixer at all? Can't you just mix "in the box"?

And finally, have you researched the basic fundamentals of recording? All that boring stuff will improve your sound a lot more than a new upgrade. Head down to a book store an look at the many books on the subject and read a couple. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised at the results.

[Mozepy]

I suggest you download the Protools M-powered demo and see if you like it. There is a link on this page:

http://www.digidesign.com/products/m...sics/index.cfm

Protools was designed for studio engineers. If you have experience with tape based recording and analog mixers it might be for you. It does not handle loops like Acid and Ableton Live. I doesn't have the most advanced MIDI features. It is very powerful but it depends on how you prefer to work. You might look into Cubase. Download demos and see what you like.

I don't know your mixer so I don't know how good it is but I doubt it is to blame for the muddy guitar. The main issue is how you get from your guitar to the interface as the other guy said.

With the Delta 66 you have 4 analog ins and if you get an AD/DA you can have 6. If you want to record your band all at once you will want a mixer with 6 good mic preamps and direct outs on each channel. I have a Mackie 1604 VLZ. Mackie has since moved it's manufacturing to China and they don't seem to be able to maintain the same quality. You can do it all with out a mixer but you will need standalone mic preamps. I use my mixer more for MIDI synths.

Any computer you use needs to be optimized for audio. The first thing to check is if the chip set, processor and OS are supported by the software. You need to eliminate any unneeded hardware and background programs/services. This can take a lot of research and time. You need to determine if the clicks are happening in you analog chain or in the computer. You may just need to raise your buffer size.

[AbjectEvolution]

What alleviated the "clicks and pops"? What is your method for recording distorted guitar? Miked amp? Plugin? Reamp? Modeling box? What guitar are you using?

Well messing with the buffer sizes of my sound card and Acid Pro "helped" but what really aleviates it is to change the audio properties of the session from 48 to 32. I'd much rather it be 48, but apparently that was mostly why the clicks and pops were happening. They have pretty much gone away, but they still show up from time to time. I'm guessing this has to do with my ram, which is only at 768 unfortunatly. It definatly needs to be more. I'd like to have 2 gigs.

My method of recording distorted guitar is to plug my guitar into my http://www.zzounds.com/item--KORAX1500G which is then plugged into a channel in my mixer which is then plugged into my M-Audio Delta 66. When playing, the sound is clear, clean, crunchy.... but when recorded and played back, it sounds very muddy and just... not as clear and clean. I don't understand why this is, but I've talked to some people and I've heard different responces like "your mixer sucks for recording, it's only good for playing... and even at that, it's not very good".... or... "you need to use something like Guitar Rig 2". I tried using Guitar Rig 2, but for some reason... there is latency. No other programs give me latency, but when I pluck a string on my guitar while playing through guitar rig, the sound outputs a little late.

The Behringer gear is much derided, but I've found that the biggest problem with it isn't necessarily the sound, but the build quality. Play a CD through it and what does it sound like to YOU, not the people you've talked to?

I had a listening party for the new Tool album on the 29th. I played the album through my recording studio's setup... the computer into the mixer into the powered monitors. It sounds perfect, I've never had complaints with listening to music through my setup. But when it comes to recording anything... guitars, vocals, whatever... it never records at the same quality that I hear myself playing at.

Pro Tools LE and M-Powered is a little more limited than most of the other major platforms out there. The biggest thing going for it is that you can readily go between a "big" studio and your home studio with a minimum of hassle. Also, knowing the Pro Tools interface can only be helpful as you go forward.

So you're teling me that compared to other programs like Pro Tools that are on the market, Pro Tools is limiting... but because it's basicly an industry standard, that using it and understanding it will help me and my band when we transition from my home recording studio, to a bigger professional one?

Mackie mixers are derided as much as Behringers, but by the next level of gear snobs. They're fine mixers, but you're always going to find somebody who tells you its crap. No matter what the piece of gear is.

What do you suggest then?

Why do you need a mixer at all? Can't you just mix "in the box"?

Yeah, technicaly I could just plug my instruments and mics into the box that attatches to my soundcard, but it's too limited to me. It's much easier to have a mixer on my desk to plug everything into at once than to have to switch out cables constantly.

And finally, have you researched the basic fundamentals of recording? All that boring stuff will improve your sound a lot more than a new upgrade. Head down to a book store an look at the many books on the subject and read a couple. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised at the results.

That's what I'm trying to do. Do you have some suggestions on some books? All the equipment I own and the programs I use... I'm self taught on. I'm no pro because I'm self taught. I've never read a book or taken a class for anything, nor lessons for any instrument I play. I wouldn't mind doing any of the above, I just never seem to have the money for it. I have a fealing I do things the hard way for me and my band, but it's working so far. I'd just like to evolve. I'm basicly acting as my band's engineer and producer, as well as being a musician for the band. I also have friends that come over and I help them record their own solo stuff.

I suggest you download the Protools M-powered demo and see if you like it. There is a link on this page:

http://www.digidesign.com/products/m...sics/index.cfm

I did download the demo actualy. After being frustrated at having to download a different program to de-compress the weird file format, I opened up the file only to not find a .exe file or anything of the like. I do not understand how to get the thing working. I'm sure there is just something I'm missing, but I haven't looked into it yet.

Protools was designed for studio engineers. If you have experience with tape based recording and analog mixers it might be for you. It does not handle loops like Acid and Ableton Live. I doesn't have the most advanced MIDI features. It is very powerful but it depends on how you prefer to work. You might look into Cubase. Download demos and see what you like.

I do not have experience with tape based recording. Everything I have ever recorded has gone though the setup I currently use, with my analog mixer. I haven't worked alot with midi yet, but I'd definatly like to get into it as I would like to add more electronic/industrial elements to my band's music. I am used to the loop based recording with Acid Pro. I'm not knowledgable enough in the field to know what the differences are between loop based programs and something like Pro Tools. I'm in the process right now of learning that and more. Anything you could tell me would be helpfull.

I have heard of Cubase. What are the differences between that and Pro Tools?

With the Delta 66 you have 4 analog ins and if you get an AD/DA you can have 6. If you want to record your band all at once you will want a mixer with 6 good mic preamps and direct outs on each channel. I have a Mackie 1604 VLZ. Mackie has since moved it's manufacturing to China and they don't seem to be able to maintain the same quality. You can do it all with out a mixer but you will need standalone mic preamps. I use my mixer more for MIDI synths.

My mixer has the features you mentioned. The mackie you mentioned is the exact one I was looking at. Is it still in production sence they moved to China? If the quality is not as good now sence the move, then what other brand(s) do you suggest I look into?

Any computer you use needs to be optimized for audio. The first thing to check is if the chip set, processor and OS are supported by the software. You need to eliminate any unneeded hardware and background programs/services. This can take a lot of research and time. You need to determine if the clicks are happening in you analog chain or in the computer. You may just need to raise your buffer size.

Well I did check out my compatibility. It seems i'm right on the minimum requirements. I definatly need a faster processor and more ram, which I would definatly look into if I plan on getting Pro Tools. I have 3 hard drives so dedicating one to pro tools is no problem.

As stated above in this post, messing with the buffer size is something I tried to do to aleviate the clicks.

Thank you both for responding, I look foward to learning more about all of this.

[MDog]

If the mixer sounds fine with a CD, then it kinda follows that it's something else. With an analog mixer, you have to pay attention to gain stage. In other words, don't clip it in the red on the channel, then turn it lower on the master. Try lowering your levels on whatever buss you are using to get to your sound card. Since you mention latency, I'm assuming you are monitoring the Korg unit direct and not listening to the recorded signal as you record.

As for learning Pro Tools, it's the industry standard. If you go to a "big" studio you'll be able to communicate more effectively if you are familiar with the interface. Also, PTLE and PTMP will more than likely do what you want it to do ie: record your band. If you're doing a lot of techno-dance-synthy-whatever, then there may be more appropriate platforms out there.

Also, Mackie mixers are fine. Behringers aren't as bad as people like to say. All I'm saying is that no matter what you get, there's always somebody around who'll tell you it's crap. And then when you spring for the top of the line gear, somebody will tell you that you wasted your money and could have just gotten a Behringer. It's a no win situation if you go by what other people say, so consider their advice, but listen for yourself. Personally, I would get a couple of stereo preamps and go direct in to the card. Why not take the most direct route?

I don't have any recommendations for books. I don't know what level your knowledge is at. You need to be objective and decide what you need help with. It sounds like a primer might be a good start just to get the basics down. IMO, you should learn the rules before you start breaking them. When you started playing guitar did you expect to sound like Eddie Van Halen within a month or two? Or were you more realistic about the process? Don't expect to make records that sound like a commercial CDs without a learning curve either.

BTW, I got the new Tool CD too and have been listening non-stop for a few days. Good stuff!

[AbjectEvolution]

If the mixer sounds fine with a CD, then it kinda follows that it's something else. With an analog mixer, you have to pay attention to gain stage. In other words, don't clip it in the red on the channel, then turn it lower on the master. Try lowering your levels on whatever buss you are using to get to your sound card. Since you mention latency, I'm assuming you are monitoring the Korg unit direct and not listening to the recorded signal as you record.

The korg pedal is plugged directly into my mixer which is plugged into my sound card and the sound outputs to my monitors. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by not listening to the recorded signal as you record, but I do listen to it as I record it on my headphones. It sounds clean and real nice while playing it, but then when playing it back after it's been recorded... it just doesn't sound as good. This goes for all my recordings, not just my guitar. I use a Digitech Vocal pedal for my vocals and the effects never translate 100% to the recordings. They never sound exactly the same for some reason.

As for learning Pro Tools, it's the industry standard. If you go to a "big" studio you'll be able to communicate more effectively if you are familiar with the interface. Also, PTLE and PTMP will more than likely do what you want it to do ie: record your band. If you're doing a lot of techno-dance-synthy-whatever, then there may be more appropriate platforms out there.

Well what are the main differences between something like Pro Tools, and loop based recording software like Acid Pro? I've been using Acid Pro for years, and I'm used to the loop based setup. How is recording different with Pro Tools?

At our roots, we are clasified as rock. Throw in progressive and experamental elements, then add some electronic sounds. That's the best way to describe my band. We're like Tool in that the majority of our music is rock based, but there are "some" electronic elements. We all love industrial and techno styles, and like incorporating that into our music sometimes. From what I read, Pro Tools isn't the best software for midi. I have never worked with midi before, but I'd like to. I don't think I'm as hardcore about midi enough to worry too much about that aspect of Pro Tools at this point.

Also, Mackie mixers are fine. Behringers aren't as bad as people like to say. All I'm saying is that no matter what you get, there's always somebody around who'll tell you it's crap. And then when you spring for the top of the line gear, somebody will tell you that you wasted your money and could have just gotten a Behringer. It's a no win situation if you go by what other people say, so consider their advice, but listen for yourself. Personally, I would get a couple of stereo preamps and go direct in to the card. Why not take the most direct route?

I just like to be able to have lots of channel inputs easily accessible on my desk. I don't like the idea of constantly switching out instruments, I'd like as many things plugged in at once. It's more of a convenience thing I suppose.

I've been reading reviews on Mackie and Behringer models around what I have and it just seems like the overall consensus of cheap behringer mixers is that they don't sound well when using them for recording. I don't know why I'm having the problems I'm having with sound quality, but it would be awsome in my openion if the problem would be as simple as switching out my mixer for a better one. You could be right in that neither brand's mixers are "bad"... but if so.... what is wrong with my recording quality? It's very frustrating.

I don't have any recommendations for books. I don't know what level your knowledge is at. You need to be objective and decide what you need help with. It sounds like a primer might be a good start just to get the basics down. IMO, you should learn the rules before you start breaking them. When you started playing guitar did you expect to sound like Eddie Van Halen within a month or two? Or were you more realistic about the process? Don't expect to make records that sound like a commercial CDs without a learning curve either.

Let me see if I can explain my process of recording, maybe it will help you understand what my level of knowledge is.

I've been recording with my setup for 3-4 years now. When I write something that I like, I open up Fruity Loops and figure out what tempo the song I'm working on is at. I create a simple click track with FL, then open up Acid and set the project to the same tempo as FL. That way if I need to loop something, I can simply move it to the line that I want, and it will loop perfectly. If I add more elements to the song, I simply crop the audio accordingly, and move it to the correct line. It has worked for me so far.

I think it would definatly be a good idea to get a book on the basics, because although I've tought my self and have a good understanding of what I'm doing, I'm possitive there are things that I just don't understand.

I enjoy the learning curve. It's frustrating and overwhelming at times, so I take it slowly... but I've come this far on my own.

BTW, I got the new Tool CD too and have been listening non-stop for a few days. Good stuff!

It's amazing. Like all new Tool releases, it takes a while for it to sink in and for your mind to grasp what you're hearing. Every new album is so different and complex. It's what I love about Tool, they are constantly evolving their sound. There are always people that hate the new albums because they are too different... but most true Tool fans get over that rather quickly and realize how awsome the new album is.

On another note....

Maybe I can give you an idea of how my recordings sound. Here is a link to my band's myspace page. All the clips on there were recorded through the setup I'm using now. You will notice there is nothing close to metal or harder rock on there. Not because we don't to explore those elements (we really do), but because distorted guitar just doesn't record well for me for some reason.

http://www.myspace.com/myopicmecca

[MDog]

All I can say is that you need to learn all the boring things. There are many books written by world class engineers, why wouldn't you want their advice? Go to the book store. Browse the titles. Read about the authors and what they have done. Buy a book and read it. Also, try some of the magazines. They are in the business of selling gear, but sometimes they have good DIY articles.

Here's an online article to try - http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-cen.../d--12/28/2001

Good luck

[Mozepy]

If you are recording at 32Khz that may explain a lot. If the Guitar sounds good in the mixer then something is happening to it in the computer.

You probably have plenty of memory to start on ProTools. I only have 512. Just check your chipset that it is compatible. Is that 300Gb HD your only drive? You would be better off getting a second drive is so.

[AbjectEvolution]

If you are recording at 32Khz that may explain a lot. If the Guitar sounds good in the mixer then something is happening to it in the computer.

You probably have plenty of memory to start on ProTools. I only have 512. Just check your chipset that it is compatible. Is that 300Gb HD your only drive? You would be better off getting a second drive is so.

Nah it can't be the 32Khz, because it sounded the same at 48Khz.

Yes, I have 2 hard drives. One that is partitioned, and my 300g. The one that's partitioned has Windows on C: and programs on D: including Acid Pro. That one is a SATA drive, whereas my 300g is a regular hard drive. I keep all my audio files on the 300g, and programs on the D: partition of my SATA drive.

[AbjectEvolution]

I have a few un-answered questions in this thread. One of them being... what is the difference in recording between loop based programs like Acid Pro, and Pro Tools? What are the big differences between Pro Tools, and Cubase?