Dear Avid

[Carl Lie]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

Logic still handles MIDI better, and ProTools still handles audio better. Can we agree there?
.

Handles is a interesting word here. If you mean it's easier to work with audio I agree but back to the issue at hand, you can run plenty of audio tracks in Logic and not have your system crash as it does for some in PT.

My system is stable and I'm not picking sides just calling out the word better as you applied it.

C

[kings79]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

For every person complaining here, there are probably 99 people whose systems are running flawlessly.

Johnny Johnny Johnny all these blanket statements.

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

I think this is generally accepted, and all of us who have been around that long know that Logic started as a MIDI platform (and one of the best on the planet), while ProTools started as an audio platform. It wasn't until later that Logic tried adding audio and ProTools tried adding MIDI. And we know how that's worked out in both cases. Logic still handles MIDI better, and ProTools still handles audio better. Can we agree there?

Expecting PT to ever have Logic's capabilities in MIDI may end up being an unfulfilled dream because of the original coding of the program. (No expert here; just conjecture). Just like Logic's capabilities in audio and/or post and/or video may never rival PT's.

Yes we can agree about the audio midi thing. No discussion there. However, MIDI in PT includes VIs etc. and that is not really working whereas audio, although not as elegant as in Protools works FLAWLESSLY inside of Logic.

I dont need PT to handle VIs and MIDI as beautifully as Logic - I just need it to work reliably and in a highly performant way.

In Logic I dont get constant errors when trying to record or playback audio recorded in it - it just works. In Protools I am getting CONSTANT errors and CPU overloads and that when running only a few VIs which in other DAWs won't even make the CPU notice that they are there. Logic made their integration of Audio able to compete - Protools failed to achieve the same for their MIDI and VI.

Such issues IMO are not about elegancy but about wrong implementation of computer code. It has been a LONG while since the new AVID Audio Engine entered the market, almost 5 years and the issues are still manyfold - so to believe they will be able to fix something that wasn't fixable the past 5 years within 2 months is just not viable as long as major overhauls aren't undertaken

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

I think this is generally accepted, and all of us who have been around that long know that Logic started as a MIDI platform (and one of the best on the planet), while ProTools started as an audio platform. It wasn't until later that Logic tried adding audio and ProTools tried adding MIDI. And we know how that's worked out in both cases. Logic still handles MIDI better, and ProTools still handles audio better. Can we agree there?

Expecting PT to ever have Logic's capabilities in MIDI may end up being an unfulfilled dream because of the original coding of the program. (No expert here; just conjecture). Just like Logic's capabilities in audio and/or post and/or video may never rival PT's.

I don't think it's as clear cut as that.

The MIDI/Piano Roll editor in Pro Tools is arguably better than Logic's (and DP). For example, in Logic you can only view one controller lane at a time. (Yes you can use Hyper Edit in Logic but that's not the same thing.) There can be a lot of "tool" swapping in Logic whereas you only need the Smart Tool and keyboard modifiers in PT. For example, simply command drag on a note to change velocity in PT. In Logic you need to switch to the velocity tool and then drag on the note and switch back again. (I know you could assign the velocity tool to Logic's command mouse click second function thingy but that's just two tools that are instantly available.) Changing note start and end points and note length can all be done with "nudge" commands in PT, it's much more clunky in Logic. Copying and pasting MIDI notes and continuous controllers between tracks is far easier and faster in PT. This can get messy very quickly Logic. In other words, Logic's MIDI editor is over rated and Pro Tools' editor underrated.

There are some areas where Logic's MIDI functionality blows ProTools away. Logic's Transform function is far superior and can do things that are impossible in ProTools, for example, remapping continuous controllers. Logic's Environment is incredibly powerful but most people probably don't even know what it does! However overall, the speed, slickness and functionality of PT's MIDI editor beats Logic.

Logic does rise above the competition in terms of CPU efficiency and bundled VIs and content. Other than that, Logic as a whole is overrated in my opinion. Yes it pretty much does everything but whatever individual functionality you focus on, it is almost always done better elsewhere. It's very much a jack of all trade's and master of none tool IMO.

Where Logic loses:
MIDI editing: Pro Tools and DP are better. Cubase is better still.
Drum editor: Cubase and DP's Drum Ediitors blow Logic's Hyper Editor out of the water. A drum editor is conspicuous by its absence in ProTools of course
Audio Editing: Pro Tools rules closely followed by Nuendo
Elastic audio/flextime: Ableton Live totally kills the competition by some margin.
Pitch Manipulation: Logic's version of what Melodyne can do is pretty lame.
Control surface support: Pro Tools followed by Cubase/Nuendo

Where Logic wins:
CPU efficiency.
Bundled VIs and content. That said, this is yet another area where Logic's ethos of quantity over quality wins out. Whatever VI or sampler instrument you choose in logic is almost invariably bested by third-party products. EXS24 vs. Kontakt, Space Designer vs. Altiverb, Logic's pianos vs. Ivory or Spitfire HZ Piano... etc. etc.... all no contest!

[Drew Mazurek]

As the "industry standard", of course PT should be as good or better than everyone else.

But some perspective....

I know for a fact that there have been issues with PT that appeared on the DUC to be HUGE problems, while in reality less than .5% of the user base were impacted.

This is a support forum. All you see is the bad stuff.

[johnnyv]

Originally Posted by kings79

Johnny Johnny Johnny all these blanket statements.

The blanket statements are a result of my being in the thick of it at the professional level of Hollywood and having to interact with people in the music and post world every single day since Sound Tools was introduced over 20 years ago.

And the takeaway is that real life at that level is nothing at all like the life you'd expect from constant following of the DUC, where people really only post when they have problems (haha, when you post that you don't have problems, people here try to chase you away and get mad at you!!!).

Here on the DUC, it seems like everyone is having problems constantly, and surely those posters are. But when I talk to and/or work with people everyday all day, I don't hear the things you constantly come across here:

"Man, I'm really thinking about switching to xxx"

"Man, my system is crashing all the time, especially when I"m getting ready for ADR on Game of Thrones"

"Man, we're thinking of doing all the audio for the next season of House of Cards on Logic"

"Dear Avid, can't you make ProTools stable for me?"

What you DO hear is:

"When I compose, I do all that work in Logic (or LIVE or Cubase or xxx)"

"Which version of PT are you guys running over there?"

And occasionally, you hear:

"I've got something odd happening in one of my rooms such that PT won't xxx when we try to xxx. Trying to track that little nasty right now"

So, yes, I stand by my blanket statement that the DUC probably represents about 1% of real life in PT-land.

And I'm posting here not to rub your noses in the fact that I think your problems represent a teeny tiny part of the overall PT community but for the purpose of:

1) letting you know that there is a beautiful sunny world for many users

2) Perhaps I can help some that are having problems up here (if I don't get covered in tomatoes in the meanwhile)

[johnnyv]

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

Yes we can agree about the audio midi thing. No discussion there. However, MIDI in PT includes VIs etc. and that is not really working whereas audio, although not as elegant as in Protools works FLAWLESSLY inside of Logic.

I dont need PT to handle VIs and MIDI as beautifully as Logic - I just need it to work reliably and in a highly performant way.

In Logic I dont get constant errors when trying to record or playback audio recorded in it - it just works. In Protools I am getting CONSTANT errors and CPU overloads and that when running only a few VIs which in other DAWs won't even make the CPU notice that they are there. Logic made their integration of Audio able to compete - Protools failed to achieve the same for their MIDI and VI.

Such issues IMO are not about elegancy but about wrong implementation of computer code. It has been a LONG while since the new AVID Audio Engine entered the market, almost 5 years and the issues are still manyfold - so to believe they will be able to fix something that wasn't fixable the past 5 years within 2 months is just not viable as long as major overhauls aren't undertaken

25, I think you've said everything just about perfectly here. If I had one overriding complaint about PT, it would be exactly what you've written here. I sure as heck wish that VI's in PT would at least work as well as audio in Logic. And as you and I would probably agree, Logic users are working in music creation for the most part. PT users are working in music mixing and post audio - at least at the professional level. It's possible that in the land of music creation, many people are trying to create in PT only to find that those such tasks are currently (and maybe forever?) undertaken better in Logic, LIVE, etc etc

You've said it all nearly perfectly.

But I posted on this thread because the original poster can't seem to get his PT system stable in the first place (let alone have the discussion you and I are having here on whether this DAW excels at this function or that function), and you and I both know that most professional DAWs can at least work properly day to day if your system is set up properly and there are no weird incompatibilities with other third party hardware or software.

[johnnyv]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

I don't think it's as clear cut as that.

The MIDI/Piano Roll editor in Pro Tools is arguably better than Logic's (and DP). For example, in Logic you can only view one controller lane at a time. (Yes you can use Hyper Edit in Logic but that's not the same thing.) There can be a lot of "tool" swapping in Logic whereas you only need the Smart Tool and keyboard modifiers in PT. For example, simply command drag on a note to change velocity in PT. In Logic you need to switch to the velocity tool and then drag on the note and switch back again. (I know you could assign the velocity tool to Logic's command mouse click second function thingy but that's just two tools that are instantly available.) Changing note start and end points and note length can all be done with "nudge" commands in PT, it's much more clunky in Logic. Copying and pasting MIDI notes and continuous controllers between tracks is far easier and faster in PT. This can get messy very quickly Logic. In other words, Logic's MIDI editor is over rated and Pro Tools' editor underrated.

There are some areas where Logic's MIDI functionality blows ProTools away. Logic's Transform function is far superior and can do things that are impossible in ProTools, for example, remapping continuous controllers. Logic's Environment is incredibly powerful but most people probably don't even know what it does! However overall, the speed, slickness and functionality of PT's MIDI editor beats Logic.

Logic does rise above the competition in terms of CPU efficiency and bundled VIs and content. Other than that, Logic as a whole is overrated in my opinion. Yes it pretty much does everything but whatever individual functionality you focus on, it is almost always done better elsewhere. It's very much a jack of all trade's and master of none tool IMO.

Where Logic loses:
MIDI editing: Pro Tools and DP are better. Cubase is better still.
Drum editor: Cubase and DP's Drum Ediitors blow Logic's Hyper Editor out of the water. A drum editor is conspicuous by its absence in ProTools of course
Audio Editing: Pro Tools rules closely followed by Nuendo
Elastic audio/flextime: Ableton Live totally kills the competition by some margin.
Pitch Manipulation: Logic's version of what Melodyne can do is pretty lame.
Control surface support: Pro Tools followed by Cubase/Nuendo

Where Logic wins:
CPU efficiency.
Bundled VIs and content. That said, this is yet another area where Logic's ethos of quantity over quality wins out. Whatever VI or sampler instrument you choose in logic is almost invariably bested by third-party products. EXS24 vs. Kontakt, Space Designer vs. Altiverb, Logic's pianos vs. Ivory or Spitfire HZ Piano... etc. etc.... all no contest!

Thanks, Marsdy, but again, this isn't a discussion about the virtues (or non) of any DAW. This is about helping the original poster get his PT system running reliably. I'm hoping he gets inspired to strip his system back, start with a fresh hard drive and the absolute bare minimum of hardware/software in an effort to get his system (at least the basics of it) running like a finely tuned machine. Then he can slowly add back in his (completely buggy) EastWest programs and such to find where he's really running into problems.

[johnnyv]

Originally Posted by Drew Mazurek

As the "industry standard", of course PT should be as good or better than everyone else.

But some perspective....

I know for a fact that there have been issues with PT that appeared on the DUC to be HUGE problems, while in reality less than .5% of the user base were impacted.

This is a support forum. All you see is the bad stuff.

Agree 100%.

And I think PT is better than anything I've seen for audio-related work. We should all know by now that there are better platforms for music creation, sadly, because it would sure kick *ss if we could look at PT as being the best for music creation, music mixing and all post audio applications.

[roboman01]

I left PT12 after my one year was up back in November 2016. It felt like I was a dog and Avid was the dog owner. The dog owner only fed his dog just enough to get buy because he knew if he gave him too much the dog would leave..I know that is a stupid saying and backwards but thats how I felt Avid was doing its users. How can a company release bug fixes then end up having more bugs to fix than you previously did is beyond me...Its sad, very sad..