FRFR Powered Speakers?

[Vercingetorix]

Hello Guys,

For a while now I have been eyeing off possible FRFR powered speakers for amplification of my 11R.

And after much due consideration to all the possible characteristics of such things, the most pressing concern was one of weight and power. It's hard carrying a guitar, amplifier, MIDI controller out to the car. And both me and my sometimes roadie don't really appreciate the weight of my current Fender amp. Even after going to the gym and getting stronger that thing is a beast.

I was very much looking at EV (Electro-Voice) as both Ben Spence and VSA have been caught using them and in the case of VSA, abusing them . But the weight of these units is at/over the 20 kg mark. But they sound great

So, I have been looking at the JBL Eon 515xt - which has a goodly amount of power, weight at 14.6 kg (my back is smiling), but, I have no idea if it will work with my 11R? Would it work correctly? Has anyone tried/tested this unit? If you are in a position to test one would you, please, I can't no-one within a 1,000 km radius has one to test! Anyone have any opinion on this unit that they are willing to share? And last but not least, how in hell do you hook these things up to the 11R?? I have no idea .

And if anyone made it this far - I give you a special commendation for reading all my dribble.

Cheers,
Verc.

[jesling]

I can help you with the hooking up part ...
You run an XLR from the 11R to the XLR in on the speaker.

What I do with my Mackie is I then run an XLR from the speaker output to the PA. So I have one XLR from 11R to PA, and one XLR from 11R through my Mackie on stage to the PA.

[moff]

From everything I read during my recent search for a powered monitor, there are really only two players, EV and QSC. EV has the SxA250 (rumoured to be discontinued, but available for order in Canada) and the newer "Live X" series ELX12P and ELX15P, and QSC has the extremely popular K10 and K12. Mackie, JBL, Behringer, and Yorkville also will work, but you might not be as happy with the sound.

Sound is subjective though, so it's really all about what sounds good to YOU. In my tests, I preferred the EV ELX15P, but ended up buying the K12 because of the deal I was able to work.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by moff

From everything I read during my recent search for a powered monitor, there are really only two players, EV and QSC. EV has the SxA250 (rumoured to be discontinued, but available for order in Canada) and the newer ELX12P and ELX15P, QSC has the extremely popular K12 and K12. Mackie, JBL, Behringer, and Yorkville also will work, but you might not be as happy with the sound.

Yes, I agree that QSC and EV are the major players, but, the weight of those units is getting up there, 20+ kilos is really a no go area, plus carrying them looks very awkward. The JBL is under 15 kg's and the handle looks very well placed

I emailed EV Australia about the EV Sxa250 and never received a reply. So as far as I aware that product is a dead end?!? The newer Live series is what I am really looking at as Ben Spence uses it.

I really wish Avid would set up a partnering program with a company that specializes in FRFR amplification so that I know that the product is optimized for use with 11R, you know, it works well, and latency is minimised, it would keep a noob like me very happy .

And thankyou Jesling, for advising on how the hookup works, so I can buy the cabling now, and if the unit doesn't work out I can take advantage of the return policy. That's a big weight lifted . Cheers.

[TieDyedDevil]

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

I really wish Avid would set up a partnering program with a company that specializes in FRFR amplification so that I know that the product is optimized for use with 11R, you know, it works well, and latency is minimised, it would keep a noob like me very happy .

With all due respect, I think this is a terrible idea.

The notion of "matching" the Eleven Rack to a particular FRFR is anathema to the very concept of FRFR amplification. The last thing you want is to have a strong dependency between the Eleven Rack and any particular FRFR system.

The whole point of a FRFR system is that it's supposed to be sonically neutral. Now, *no* FRFR system is sonically neutral in an absolute sense. You'll find differences in response and dispersion, but - for a *good* FRFR system - they'll be small differences.

The nice thing about using a decent FRFR with your Eleven Rack is that you shouldn't *have to* depend upon any *particular* brand or model of FRFR. That gives you a lot of flexibility: you can pick up your Eleven Rack, plug it into a decent house PA at almost any venue anywhere in the world, and your guitar will sound pretty much the way you expect it to sound.

Sometimes there *will* be differences. Often the venue has a "signature" EQ on their PA; you may have to negotiate with the operator to get a flat EQ for your channel(s). But beyond reminding the operator that you'd like him/her to flatten the EQ - at least for your monitor(s) - you should be good to go.

I won't get into how to choose an FRFR system, since most folks are guided by how much they're able (or willing) to spend. The good news is that, if you play your guitar in standard tuning and don't need to play "too loud", then you have a lot of leeway in your choice of FRFR system. Buy a system that sounds good for music at volumes comparable to how loudly you'll be playing your guitar (hint: play a selection of familiar tunes using an iPod), and it should be fine for the Eleven Rack.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil

With all due respect, I think this is a terrible idea.

The notion of "matching" the Eleven Rack to a particular FRFR is anathema to the very concept of FRFR amplification. The last thing you want is to have a strong dependency between the Eleven Rack and any particular FRFR system.

The whole point of a FRFR system is that it's supposed to be sonically neutral. Now, *no* FRFR system is sonically neutral in an absolute sense. You'll find differences in response and dispersion, but - for a *good* FRFR system - they'll be small differences.

The nice thing about using a decent FRFR with your Eleven Rack is that you shouldn't *have to* depend upon any *particular* brand or model of FRFR. That gives you a lot of flexibility: you can pick up your Eleven Rack, plug it into a decent house PA at almost any venue anywhere in the world, and your guitar will sound pretty much the way you expect it to sound.

Sometimes there *will* be differences. Often the venue has a "signature" EQ on their PA; you may have to negotiate with the operator to get a flat EQ for your channel(s). But beyond reminding the operator that you'd like him/her to flatten the EQ - at least for your monitor(s) - you should be good to go.

I won't get into how to choose an FRFR system, since most folks are guided by how much they're able (or willing) to spend. The good news is that, if you play your guitar in standard tuning and don't need to play "too loud", then you have a lot of leeway in your choice of FRFR system. Buy a system that sounds good for music at volumes comparable to how loudly you'll be playing your guitar (hint: play a selection of familiar tunes using an iPod), and it should be fine for the Eleven Rack.

Ok, consider the idea retracted. I've had 3 hrs sleep, every muscle/tendon/joint in my body is aching from Bujutsu training, and I'm not thinking that well, I was the crash test dummy last night - sleep is a very attractive option right about now.

As for trying out an FRFR system there are none within a 1,000 km radius. So, I have to buy first and 'hope' it works well, otherwise $$$ will be spent to return it Because no system is truly Flat Response and the bass response is going to vary, which is important to me as I use 7's, and possibly an eight soon. One reason for looking at a 15", but, you'll probably tell me that's a stupid idea as well

Oh well, live an learn .

[TieDyedDevil]

I hope you didn't take my comments personally, Vercingetorix.

I'll stand by my comment that it's a bad idea to tie the Eleven Rack to a particular FRFR, for exactly the reasons I've already noted.

OTOH, I completely understand your need to at least get some recommendations since you can't audition any gear locally. That's a tough situation... Sorry I missed that in your original post.

Unfortunately you can't easily pick a FRFR system from the spec sheets, since virtually *all* of the manufacturers (including the well-regarded ones) engage in specsmanship that renders the numbers meaningless as a basis for comparison.

To look at the spec sheets, all the speakers have more than enough range to cover a guitar in standard tuning. Once you get into a 7-string guitar, especially a down-tuned 7-string, the lowest frequencies start to get into the range where the usable response of the speaker starts to fall off.

There's no getting around physics: it takes more power and more speaker cone area to get useful response at lower frequencies. The louder you play, the more power you need. The more low frequency response you expect, the larger the speaker needed.

Worse, the watts with which you may be familiar from your experience with tube amps don't translate into FRFR. This is *not* because "tube watts are louder than SS watts"… There are lots of other factors in play: limiters, speaker efficiency, cabinet, etc.

Your best bet is to get recommendations from other guitarists who play in a similar style in similar situations.

There's a lot of good gear out there. It's tough to go wrong with any of the well-regarded brands. Just don't expect to get stadium-shaking low-end response from a single cabinet, even with a 15" driver.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil

I hope you didn't take my comments personally, Vercingetorix.

Don't worry about me I was just being petulant. It happens from time to time, if I'd been feeling better it wouldn't have happenned. So sorry.

Your reasoning makes sense - it just that living in a small town in the middle of nowhere where modelling is looked upon as this evil alien presence that should be burnt at the stake, it makes learning about FRFR stuff quite difficult.

And yes, what you do find on the Net is a lot of one-specmanship. And for where I'm at that means lots of visits to Wikipedia and other(s) to find out what those specs mean .

And I'm not really worried by price of the unit (999-1,500 AU) covers just about every name brand I've seen in Oz, but, weight is absolutely critical.

[moff]

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Yes, I agree that QSC and EV are the major players, but, the weight of those units is getting up there, 20+ kilos is really a no go area, plus carrying them looks very awkward. The JBL is under 15 kg's and the handle looks very well placed...[snip]...The newer Live series is what I am really looking at as Ben Spence uses it.

I was concerned about the weight reported in the manual as well - after all, the object of the exercise was to downsize...

But in reality, both the QSC K12 and the ELX15P (EV Live "X" series) are surprisingly light - or maybe they're just well balanced. Whatever the case may be, both "feel" very light, and neither is a big deal to move.

I already carry other stuff that weighs more: the rack that holds my 11R also holds a Shure IEM mixer, a Sennheiser EW300 IEM transmitter, a Furman PL Plus, an X2 XDS-Plus guitar receiver, plus assorted cables, body packs, and mics during transport. I also travel with a single case that holds two '70s Les Pauls - it's about the size of a bari sax case, and weighs slightly less than the anchor off an aircraft carrier.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by moff

I was concerned about the weight reported in the manual as well - after all, the object of the exercise was to downsize...

But in reality, both the QSC K12 and the ELX15P (EV Live "X" series) are surprisingly light - or maybe they're just well balanced. Whatever the case may be, both "feel" very light, and neither is a big deal to move.

Aha. Now that in and of itself has me swaying back to the major players. Being well-balanced makes it easier to move around and get into position and these units are only a couple of hundred more than the JBL. I just had a look at these items in US stores and couldn't believe the prices!!! Only $700 for both units .

Originally Posted by moff

... it's about the size of a bari sax case, and weighs slightly less than the anchor off an aircraft carrier.