How many hard drives to reach 192 tracks with protools HD ?

[Loudyman]

Hi,
I asked this before in the storage subsystems section in vain, it's why I reiterate here (please MOD, don't move it).
It's so important and I want to understand !
So, let's go:

I'm trying to setup my mac pro with my protools HD rig , but I've got some trouble with the drives ;
Which PLAN would you choose ?

PLAN A:
-1 internal sata boot drive for protools , system and plugins.
-4 external FW800 drives "daisy-chained" for my audio recording ,
-3 other internal sata drives of the mac to store the samples libraries of my sampler and plugins >> but I wonder if I can use them simultaneously because Digidesign' site says that we can't spread audio files through different type of drives per sessions ;(either internal or external but not both!)

Important Note About Mixing Drive Types With Pro Tools|HD Systems
You cannot spread audio files from one session across different types of drives. For example, if you have a session with audio files on SCSI drives, you cannot record or play back Pro Tools files from an IDE/ATA or FireWire drive.
This applies to audio files only, video can be on a different type of drive, or the same type of drive as the audio files in a session.

Today's libraries are huge when they need to be used into a sampler plugin, it's why I wonder if I can stream them from an internal disk (here internal sata) while playback/record audio tracks from/to external FW800 drives?
According to Digidesign support , I can't do that, or I must copy the samples needed to the external FW800 drive!

Do the sample libraries are common audio files that can't be spread over different drives?

PLAN B:
-1 internal sata boot drive for protools , system and plugins.
-6 external FW800 drives "daisy-chained" =
*4 external FW800 drives for my audio recording ,
*2 external FW800 drives for all my samples libraries .

I will work with session at 24 bits/48 khz , I asked to Glyphtech (the brand I'll plan to buy) and they said that with 4 FW800 drives daisy-chained at 48 khz , I could reasonably expect 48 tracks per drives without overloading the firewire bandwidth , that's will give me the maximum tracks count allowed by my protools HD3 (192 tracks).
I certainly don't need that much at every session but I don't want to be limited by the drives and I just want to be able to use the full potential of a HD3 accel , i.e., 192 tracks , when I need it.
I think that 100 tracks on a regular basis will be pretty good.

According to digidesign , I will be able to daisy-chain only 4 firewire 800 drives (GT050Q) and get therefore 96 tracks maximum , and they didn't support and/or try a daisy-chain with more than 4 FW800 drives ;

Do you think I will be able to obtain the maximum of 192 tracks (PT HD3) with this setup ?

Up to 4 FireWire 800 daisy-chained drives supported when used without other FireWire drives

FireWire 400 Hard Drives
Supported track count (per drive): 24 tracks per drive at 48 KHz/24-bit @ 2000ms edit density
Maximum 8 drives for a total of 192 tracks at 48 KHz/24-bit @ 2000ms edit density

Yeah, but the Glyph GT050Q can only be daisy-chained via the FW800 port , it has just one FW400 port !!

SATA Hard Drives
Internal SATA drives are qualified for up to 32 tracks, 24 bit, 44.1/48 kHz with Pro Tools|HD systems on Power Mac G5 models.
Dedicated recording drives only, recording to the startup drive is not supported.
External SATA drives not tested

IDE/ATA Hard Drives
Up to 32 track, 24 bit, 48 KHz performance from one dedicated internal IDE/ATA audio drive is supported on qualified Pro Tools systems for Mac OS X.

Then,
SATA/IDE/ATA > 32 tracks internal x3 = 96 tracks , is not enough for all my audio tracks and I don't have anymore internal dedicated drives for the samples libraries.

It's why I want to go external with FW800 .

Sincerely ,
I would be grateful if anyone could help me with this.

Links:

Digidesign hard drive requirements:http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...4&itemid=23132
Glyphtech GTO5OQ track count tests : http://www.glyphtech.com/support/trackcount.php

Or if you have another solution , please tell me ...
Thanks in advance,
Loudy :)>

[Craig F]

I can tell tell you that we run over 100 tracks of a single internal SATA2 drives (WD-Black, or some Seagate 500GB, 16MB+ buffer, 3 Gb/s transfer rate) this is for Post and tracks aren't necessarily well utilized

[TVPostSound]

You are confusing the 192 playback track count with 192 recording tracks.

I run over 90 tracks on a WD Caviar internal Black.

[Loudyman]

Thanks guys,

Originally Posted by DIAFXMX

You are confusing the 192 playback track count with 192 recording tracks.

I run over 90 tracks on a WD Caviar internal Black.

I don't get it , what's the difference ?

[Craig F]

recording takes at least twice the bandwidth than straight playback

[Eric Seaberg]

If I were you I'd spend the money on a PCI firewire card to give yourself another FW buss. By daisy-chaining multiple drives on one buss you're bound to have HUGE traffic congestion. Even if the GlyphTech told you otherwise, another FW buss is very cheap insurance is you've got an available card slot.

As far as 192-track playback, it's actually 192-VOICES where the limit is! If you're doing punching, i.e. quickpunch or trackpunch, then you'll use 2-voices per track... 1 for playback and 1 for record once you punch.

I'm running an HD4 with 128-I/O from an SSL console, basically the same as having 8-HD192 interfaces all with 16-channels. Because I may be recording up to 110 tracks at one time, I can't afford to have congestion on a drive. This system is built with 4-1TB drives and I try to equally spread the tracks evenly around all four drives, i.e. 25-30 tracks per drive.

[Loudyman]

Originally Posted by Craig F

recording takes at least twice the bandwidth than straight playback

OK, thanks Craig
So, in my setup I will record no more than 8 tracks at once , on the other hand I will use a lot of midi/instruments tracks (playback here ?) .

For example, if I dedicate the 3 internal drives of my mac (system drive apart), with what you're telling me , I will be able to handle 3x65=195 theoretical tracks , it's perfect but where can I store my samples' libraries and use them in the same session ? on firewire drives ?

[BaileyBass]

Originally Posted by Loudyman

OK, thanks Craig
So, in my setup I will record no more than 8 tracks at once , on the other hand I will use a lot of midi/instruments tracks (playback here ?) .

For example, if I dedicate the 3 internal drives of my mac (system drive apart), with what you're telling me , I will be able to handle 3x65=195 theoretical tracks , it's perfect but where can I store my samples' libraries and use them in the same session ? on firewire drives ?

I believe Craig said that he got around 100 tracks per drive.?
Ultimately you are going to have to try different configs and see what works best for you and your equipment. There are few "absolutes" because there are tons of variables. Different Vi's , sample sizes, RAM, ...
Personally, I have my sample libraries on external FW drives and run large sessions fine.
BUT.. sounds like you are contemplating running huge sessions with VI's. Unless you print your VI tracks, that is not gonna happen in PT. Just about the only folks running sessions as large as you're talking about are POST folks...film, tv... mostly all audio.
I am curious about your workflow. Perhaps if you explain that, people will be better able to help. All of your posts sound like what "you are planning to do"... not "what you are doing". Do you have your rig setup yet? SB

[Loudyman]

Thanks Eric,

Originally Posted by Eric Seaberg

If I were you I'd spend the money on a PCI firewire card to give yourself another FW buss. By daisy-chaining multiple drives on one buss you're bound to have HUGE traffic congestion. Even if the GlyphTech told you otherwise, another FW buss is very cheap insurance is you've got an available card slot.

Unfortunately, my mac is full (I think) graphic card + HD3 Pcie accel

As far as 192-track playback, it's actually 192-VOICES where the limit is! If you're doing punching, i.e. quickpunch or trackpunch, then you'll use 2-voices per track... 1 for playback and 1 for record once you punch.

I'm running an HD4 with 128-I/O from an SSL console, basically the same as having 8-HD192 interfaces all with 16-channels. Because I may be recording up to 110 tracks at one time, I can't afford to have congestion on a drive. This system is built with 4-1TB drives and I try to equally spread the tracks evenly around all four drives, i.e. 25-30 tracks per drive.

As you can see in my previous post, it's rather a small recording setup, but a huge playback system that I aim .

[Loudyman]

Hey BaileyBass ,
you're right , my rig is not setup yet, hard drives are the last step! (for protools hardware )

But you know, I'm new to protools and it's not easy for a newbie to enter this world !

Concerning VI tracks, I think I'll print them when it's really necessary and for archive.

What else can I tell you ?