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  #531  
Old 06-27-2014, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

@nigelpry…excellent posts and tests!! i have to say, 'for me', trying to figure out what 'other' trax will automatically do ADC properly with VI multi-outs with AOS plugs would drive me crazy. knowing 'now' that all i have to do is eyeball the amount of delay on the track and enter that value as a negative value in the +/- field seems like the simplest workaround. i know it comes down to personal preference. but at least i can use the track workflow i've developed. but again, great posts!
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  #532  
Old 06-27-2014, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

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Originally Posted by mykhal c View Post
@nigelpry…excellent posts and tests!!>>great posts!
+1

Thank you, for doing AVID's job.
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  #533  
Old 06-28-2014, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

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Originally Posted by nigelpry View Post
Spaced, bear in mind that the post 383 you refer to, along with some posts after it, still report timing problems with more than one VI. In the scenario I used, I have superior drummer and strike both with multiple outs and a click track all close enough in sync to be useable. That is by using Audio tracks for all VI AND multiple outputs, and forcing delay compensation on them all.

One thing I am curious about in the picture of your battery setup ... Did you have to do anything special to get delay compensation working on the aux tracks carrying battery's extra outputs?

For me, running HD software but not HD hardware, as soon as I select a VI output as the input for an Aux track, the track comp value changes to zero and delay compensation is, in effect, off for that track.

I'll try Battery later myself just in case there is something magical about it!
Nigel, if you look at the testing methodology in post #383, you will see that the timing reference I use is a click sample placed on an audio track. It is against these that I compare the timing of the VI outputs that have varying amounts of automatic delay compensation applied to them.

As the clicks on the audio track are out of phase with the VI output click (same sample used), when the system is correctly delay compensated the output is silence. Nudging the audio track forward or back by one sample causes the click to return, hence the claim for sample accurate sync.

It was stated in previous posts that putting the VI on an audio track produced accurate delay compensation within that VI, but not with the rest of the session. I was pointing out that if you force enable delay compensation on the audio track containing the VI, it stays in sync with itself and the rest of the session.

I don't believe there's anything 'magical' about Battery, the technique also works with SSD, Kontakt and (most importantly for me) VEP. I didn't do anything to enable delay comp on the auxes, it happened by itself.

There's certainly a possibility that this only works with HD Native. Ghostwriter has already reported that it fails on HDX. As you own a different configuration to either of us, could you try it out and report back?
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  #534  
Old 06-28-2014, 06:12 AM
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Ghost In The Attic Ghost In The Attic is offline
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

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I was pointing out that if you force enable delay compensation on the audio track containing the VI, it stays in sync with itself and the rest of the session.
Which to me is one of the most important factors that seems to get missed. So many of the workarounds I've seen posted are not useable when you need to track live instruments with the VI when recording (unless you record the VI multi-outputs to audio tracks first). Creating an in sync VI that is only in sync to itself is not a viable solution for me.
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  #535  
Old 06-28-2014, 06:25 AM
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

Spaced, I'll try what you ask later, on the road at the moment. But please do confirm regarding track compensation value on aux tracks carrying multiple outputs from VI.

In HD software with 3rd party hardware, as soon as I select a plugin output as the track's input, the track compensation value resets to zero, whereas in your picture it shows track compensation values still working with Battery outputs selected as the track inputs.
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  #536  
Old 06-28-2014, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

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Originally Posted by nigelpry View Post
Spaced, I'll try what you ask later, on the road at the moment. But please do confirm regarding track compensation value on aux tracks carrying multiple outputs from VI.

In HD software with 3rd party hardware, as soon as I select a plugin output as the track's input, the track compensation value resets to zero, whereas in your picture it shows track compensation values still working with Battery outputs selected as the track inputs.
page 71 of the reference manual explains some options that HD hardware has that 3rd party hardware does not. now whether this compensation is reflected in the values shown in the mixer i'm not sure. but i did want to point this out just in case it does factor in...
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  #537  
Old 06-29-2014, 05:13 AM
Spaced Spaced is offline
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

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Originally Posted by nigelpry View Post
Spaced, I'll try what you ask later, on the road at the moment. But please do confirm regarding track compensation value on aux tracks carrying multiple outputs from VI.

In HD software with 3rd party hardware, as soon as I select a plugin output as the track's input, the track compensation value resets to zero, whereas in your picture it shows track compensation values still working with Battery outputs selected as the track inputs.


The track compensation values happen by themselves, it isn't anything I'm doing. They're zero initially (or reflect the current delay compensation in the session) but change as soon as I start inserting plug-ins.

I tried changing Playback Engine to the computer's built in audio to try and negate the HD Native card somewhat- same result.
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  #538  
Old 06-29-2014, 03:02 PM
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nigelpry nigelpry is offline
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

OK, Spaced, guys ….

1st off an apology … I even managed to get myself a little confused …

When I talked about the track compensation value resetting to 0 (zero) as soon as I selected a VI multiple output as the Aux Track's input, it was actually only when the VI itself was placed on an Instrument Track. When the VI is placed on an Audio Track, the track compensation value on the Aux Tracks stays active.

Ok then, so on to the tests.

I loaded up Battery onto an Audio Track, selected a simple snare sample (not from Battery, just one from my own sample library) and loaded it into a cell.

Set the cell to output its sound on St.3/4 and set up an audio track with Battery output St.3/4 set as its input.

Then I recorded it, using the same MIDI loop I had used in the previous tests.

I set the recorded audio to loop over 4 bars, then went back into Battery, and changed the cell's output to St.1/2, so now I had the snare sound playing live on the Audio Track that the VI was instantiated on, and the recorded audio of the same sound playing back on the 2nd Audio Track.

Put Avid's Trim plugin (multi-mono) on the playing live Audio Track and on the Audio Track with the recording.

The test works both ways. If I phase reverse either the live playback of Battery, or the recorded audio of the same sample, the sound does cancel out completely. Success confirmed then.

I then tried the same thing in Strike, making sure to cut out all the processing FX and mic bleed/room etc stuff, loaded up the same snare sample, recorded etc.

Same result, flipping phase for the live playback against the recording cancels out completely. Success again.

Tried the same thing in Superior Drummer. First problem is, there is no mechanism I know of to load your own samples, you have to use a superior drummer or EZ drummer kit.

At first, flipping phase didn't quite cancel out, but of course there is random 'round robin' stuff going on. Once I switched that off, then it cancelled out completely.

I then thought I'd try and be even more clever, and try playing back the recorded audio of both Battery and Strike, flipping the phase of one to see if it cancels out. I thought this ought to be possible given they used the same sample.

It doesn't cancel out, nowhere near, just a barely perceptible 'difference' in the sound.

I then went through every setting in both VI's making sure everything that might affect the sound coming out of the VI was switched off, making sure that the sample start position is the same for them both, volume, panning, dynamics based on MIDI note velocity, literally went through every setting on every page of both VIs making sure every bit of processing is off.

The recordings do not cancel out.

Subjectively, Battery is quite a bit louder, you can see it in the waveform and the meters. But, also, the waveforms look different, so despite having done everything possible in the VI to make them sound the same, what comes out is not identical. Must be some 'hidden' processing of some description. I'll try to do more to see if I can discover some other factor, in case I have missed something, but I have gone through absolutely everything I can think of.

In Battery, the first 287 samples on each snare hit shows very little movement away from flatline, you have to zoom in a lot to see that there is any movement at all. Whereas Strike's waveform starts pretty much straightaway, actually it's 1 sample later than the MIDI note that triggered it.

The slight hint of a waveform when zoomed in on the Battery waveform starts 1 sample later than Strike, so 2 samples after the MIDI note that triggered it. But as I say, it is 287 samples later before the audio shows any significant waveform.

Also, when Battery's waveform does start showing some proper movement, that first big movement is negative. When you compare the two waveforms at that point in time Strike's waveform goes positive, so they seem to be out of phase.

This is most curious, it looks as though there is still some kind of processing going on within Battery, affecting the start of playback and the phase.

I'll keep going back to it over the next few days to see if I can discover anything else, but at the moment I'm pretty stumped on that front.

Any ideas?
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  #539  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:49 AM
Spaced Spaced is offline
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

Nigel, thanks for trying that out.

However you don't mention whether after recording Battery's output to an audio track and phase flipping it against the 'live' Battery output to hear it cancel, you went on to change the plugins on the 'live' output (to alter the amount of delay compensation needed) and hear if it still cancelled.

Also, just to be clear, is this test with delay compensation forced on the audio track containing the instrument, but not on the auxes? This is the only way the automatic delay compensation will work correctly for me.

As to why you can't get the outputs of two different VIs to cancel, it could be just about anything. The first thing to ensure is that the levels match exactly- you can use the channel peak level indicator for this. I would also suspect some form of 'humanize' function that maybe can't be disabled.

In my test with the simple click sample, the output from Battery doesn't completely cancel with the same sample replayed directly from an audio track- only down to about -60dB. This suggests Battery is very slightly altering the replay of the sample, could be level, timing, spectral composition, dither......just about anything and we can't get inside the Battery 'black box' to find out.
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  #540  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:51 AM
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Becharax Becharax is offline
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Default Re: Delay Compensation bug in PT11 with AOS plug-ins

I have a question ... I was trying to print out the midi parts from stylus to audio tracks and I noticed there was a delay at the start of each audio file ... is this the bug everyone is talking about ??
Please confirm
Thanks
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