First time video post processing questions.

[Rabidium]

Hi, all! I'm visiting from over in the PC LE forum... I have a project that just landed in my lap, and I need some quick advice and info.

I have a group of friends who have made a series of tv shows over the last few years. Well, the time has come to put them onto DVD, and unfortunately I've volunteered to help with the sound. While the sound issues are numerous and range from clipped mics (all the freaking time!) to loud background noise, to general equipment hum issues. Anyway, those issues are all something I've encountered in music mixing (though never this much or this bad) but I don't have any experience mixing for tv. Tragically, I'm essentially just mastering this, as most of the audio has been submixed and the original audio tracks deleted.

So what I'd like help with is general standards levels - normally I just mix to some song I know that's similar in style, but that's not working for me on this - I've never listened to tv shows critically, and I hardly have time to listen to the few dozen hours that would help get my ears in tune for this sort of thing. So are there standardized levels for volume? How loud should background music be versus dialog. How do I determine what the levels of my dialog are, say in PAZ or ? Is the idea to get everything as forward/center sounding as possible? How is panning handled? What shows should I look to for reference? what the hell am I doing this for if I'm not being paid?

I really appreciate any help or links you can provide to get me up to speed quickly. I know this isn't something that can be learned in a week, and if there was any money at all, we'd have a professional tackle it, but as we stand, I'm the best available choice. So if you all can make me look good, I'll love you forever!
-Olaf

[minister]

lotta discussion on this. do a search and you will find a lot. also, check out dr sound's post just above you about room calibration. discussion in there too.

[Rabidium]

Thanks man, for getting back to me so quickly. I am currently reading that post, it has some useful info. I find your response a bit lacking though, as you can see by my post count, I'm not a newbie on these forums. I have been using the search function, and I really can tell there's been a lot of discussion on this, but I don't honestly have time to read every post on this site that mentions the word 'post'. If you could refer me to specific threads, or you could tell me specific search terms to search for, that would help. any threads I should read besides the room tuning one? any sites with good basics tutorials you might reccomend? I am asking for help broadly because I have general questions and need general answers. Searching is really most effective for specific questions, and hasn't been thoroughly helpful to me here.
Thanks,
-Olaf

[minister]

well, compared to me, you're quite the 10 post veteran. i'm teasing., i just did a search, restricted it post & surround, put "mix levels" in quotes, within the last year, show preview and got lots of hits on relevant posts. try that.

[Rabidium]

Yeah, I got ya beat! but I've been quieter for a while now, since I had to sell off my 001. So you'll prolly pass me by soon.

Anyway, I've spent the last two days here at work reading everything I can from your search suggestions. Thanks, that did help narrow it down a lot, and I guess it also gave me a sense of the scope of what I'm trying to do. But much of the info was about fixing problems (which I don't have time to do) or various broadcast standards. At least I'm now able to narrow down what I want to know.

So I've decided to be more specific in my questioning!
My understanding is that a common number for RMS is -16, and -8 for Peak. I assume that flows over to dvd, if not, can you tell me what numbers I should be shooting for to be average in the dvd bin? (I'm not looking to get a full education, I'm just looking for a solid answer (right or wrong) 8o)

Here's what I'm thinking will be on my master fader: L2, BF meterbridge, PAZ analyzer
The BF should be set to RMS and hold at -16
the PAZ should be set to peak and not ever exceed -8
The L2 should be adjusted until the above 2 are true.

Does that sound about right, M? Should there be a peak limiter at some absolute value to protect the -8 thing? What other plugs should I look at for getting things to sound right?
Thanks again for your help and advice, I realize that becoming a post-person doesn't take two days, it proabbly takes longer than learning to record music, so I'm really willing to just trust someone's opinion and get to work, so throw out some absolute numbers and methodology and I'll go with it!
-Olaf

[minister]

now it's down to 7. if i keep writing useless drivel, i'll finally catch you!

TV and film/DVD levels are a bit different. for TV, i never go above -8 (or more usually -8.5 or -10) for instantaneous show peaks (or any other level). this is for broadcast "standards" reasons. but, man, i tell you, it is amess out there in terms of what networks tell you about b-cast standards, so let's leave that for now. for film/dvd, keep your dialogue in the -26 to -20 range (if your good about eq and apparent loudness tricks), but some peaks can hit as high as -10 for short peaks and loud dialogue. but your explosions, music, gunfire, can get close to the breaking point. if you calibrate your room properly, these levels will make sense auditorily. 85 for film, 79 for tv. if it SOUNDS too loud, it IS too loud. DVD's ought to have slightly less dynamic range as they will be played at home rather than in a theater.

be very careful of all those plug-ins on your master channel, that's a whole lotta deeeee-lay! you may be pushing your dialogue back more than a few frames. if you are, calculate your delays, duplicate playlists on all tracks and slide your audio forward so that they are earlier by the delay amount. (the old playlists and your original timestamp should preserve the old sync.) you don't need the BF meterbridge (notorious for it's delay and almost useless reporting) if you are using PAZ. use the PAZ meter if you must....but maybe not on your master fader...put it on your reprint track. i sugesst reprint your mix back into PT with bus routing rather than BTD.

bus your dialogue to a separate channel, in fact, create busses for your fx, bkgds, vo, & music. on the diag bus, place a limiter. fast attack, fast release.

hope that helps.

[Rabidium]

Hey, I had to reply just to make sure you won't pass me by! 8o)

No, I've been offline a few days, but I've been putting your advice to work. THanks for all your help, Tom. I've been going with an 1176 and an L2 on the master, and basically just doing spot repairs beyond that. Unfortunately this is all already submixed to stereo, so there's only so much I can do. I am compensating for delay, so far I haven't used anything wierd on the channel to cause too much. The PAZ I disable before bounce. Though I've thought of just running the whole show through GRM tool's Comb Filter and sending it back as a prank!

Should I be printing to a track instead of bouncing? What's the advantage to this. This is purely curiosity since I've been doing it here for ease-of-use, but You've so skillfully answered all my questions that I have none left! 8o)

Thanks again,
-Olaf

[minister]

Should I be printing to a track instead of bouncing? What's the advantage to this.

there are a few reasons. one, some claim there is a sonic difference between BTD and re-reprinting the mix (there are some posts about it in the TDM forum now...and i won't debate it here. bus reprinting is certainly not WORSE; two, if you are in destrucitve record mode, you can stop and punch in when there are mistakes and not have to rebounce a 54 minutes show or whatever...you fix, punch in and move on; three, you can watch the video run as you make the file to make sure there are no more issues (in which case, see 2); and four, you can simultaneously create all of your stems for backup or M&E for translations or for re-mixing later or printmastering on a stage.

p.s. i catching up, ony two more

[Rabidium]

Ok, well, this is me, defeated and shamed, giving props to you post-processing guys. I just resigned as audio-repair guy on this project, and with good reason. When analyzing my work, a quote came up, from the television series Invader Zim:


"I put out the fires"
"You made them worse"
"Worse or Better?"

So I guess I'm just saying it isn't as easy as it looks to make things sound good on TV, and I admire those who must do it better than I. So pretty much everyone then.
-Olaf