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  #1  
Old 04-26-2010, 10:13 PM
DanielPinho DanielPinho is offline
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Default MBox 2 & its mic pre's

Hello friends,

I am currently recording my solo album all by my own (drums at studio & vocals, bass, guitars at home) and I'm trying to figure out the best sound I can get from the gear I have. As I'm relatively a newbie, I'd really appreciate your advice. So I have a couple of questions for the experts:

I have a AKG C3000B mic and I'm recording a "bassy" male voice.

1. Is that possible that Behringer mixer's pres sound better than the Mbox2 USB ones? The low frequencies sounded way clearer with the Behringer pres to me. I mean, it's a really cheap mixer with 4 mic pre's. MBox2 has only two pres and its 5 times the price. Am I being deceived by my ears? (test mp3 here: http://rapidshare.com/files/380645097/pres.mp3 )

2. Would a cheap mic pre make a noticeable difference on sound quality (like a Focusrite Isa One or a Universal Audio 710 Twin-Finity)? Or should I spend my money on something like a Neumann TLM103 microphone? Upgrade the path or upgrade the source? :)

Thank you in advance and sorry for my bad english - haven't practiced in a while!

Regards,
Daniel
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:30 PM
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Keybeeetsss Keybeeetsss is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

Daniel
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:40 PM
DanielPinho DanielPinho is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

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Daniel
yes, sir!
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:22 AM
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albee1952 albee1952 is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

I would say either will make a difference(or at least CAN make a difference), especially with a condenser mic. Consider that the phantom voltage(48V) in the Behringer(or any AC-powered preamp) comes from the power supply, while the 48V in the Mbox(or any bus-powered preamp) is derived from a little transformer that steps up the 5v from the USB port. As for the:
"like a Focusrite Isa One or a Universal Audio 710 Twin-Finity"
I would call those BUDGET preamps, but not cheap(like an ART MPA or any other $100 preamp). As the ISA-ONE is a single channel from the ISA 428/828 line, that's certainly a step up(but whether its right for your needs is up to your ears and taste). Both those preamps are worth a listen to see if they would suit your needs, as well as some others like the Grace 101 or an API512.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:05 PM
JazzyJ JazzyJ is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

I've recorded a great soprano female singer with a C1000 and then with a Rode NT1 - so from small to large diaphram mics and there was little difference.

I think that to get noticeable improvement you have to spend bigger bucks all round - top mic, top preamp, top interface.....

If you've got a reasonable condenser mic and an Mbox 2, record at 24bit, 48khz then you should be able to get some great results for a DIY album.

I'd think more about what Rtas compressor / Eq and reverb I was using and also what mastering tools than I would about getting different gear to wht you've already got.

If you really are looking for improved quality then you'll need to go up to 96khz with an interface anyway.

The best all round vocal mic that I've come across at the lower end is the Audio Technica AT4030.

Try the Massey CT4 compressor (demo), Redland Reverb (demo) and Vintage warmer and/or Ozone 4 (demos) on your songs and see what that does for you.
Saying that, the T-Racks 3 compressors are brilliant for the price if you can't go to Waves, UAD or Bombfactory compressors.....
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:29 PM
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Keybeeetsss Keybeeetsss is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

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Originally Posted by JazzyJ View Post
If you really are looking for improved quality then you'll need to go up to 96khz with an interface anyway.
That isn't in any form of a fact to say the least...
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

My Mbox 2 pre's are way noisy. Its all garbage noise under 20Hz though. Sounds very decent with frequencies below that nuked. Use a high pass filter in your chain to eliminate that. It will free up headroom and you plug ins wont trip out because they see VU's moving when there is no audio. If your recording this digitally your going to have to get the music into the box somehow and on the mbox 2 i experience the same sound quality between the DI's, line and mic ins. they all were pretty noisy below 20hz. I cant say this is whats up with yours but give the filter a try and if that doesn't do the trick to at least bring it up to beringer quality . i think your money would be better spent on a different interface. The other issue you may run into trying to record a whole album on an MBOX 2 is you have no comfort effects like reverb/ chorus or delay without significant latency. I would not spend $1000 on a mic when recording on an mbox 2. I also would not buy another pre for an mbox 2. If your considering those things at least move up to an mbox2pro. but I would also find it very difficult to record an entire album with 0 verb in my ear. just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:03 PM
necjamc necjamc is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keybeeetsss View Post
That isn't in any form of a fact to say the least...
Although I do a lot of recording at 96KHz, this is the way it is. Many albums on the radio were recorded at 48K. It's the standard ADAT protocol. Raising the sample rate will not make a difference in tonal quality. I have compared 48 and 96 enough to know that what I HEAR is not noticeable. How many CD's do you enjoy. They are all 44.1.
I quoted Key cause he's right, not arguing against him
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:22 PM
aka21stCentury aka21stCentury is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

First Daniel. A 'large' studio owner from Rio D'Janero was visiting here with all of his material in MP4s. He said it was a travesty what MP3 did to percussion and cymbals (not to mention ambience).

Besides Bob Marley, there are many of us who worship Jorge Ben, and in that spirit I post this. As Bob would wait until the station in Rio could turn up their transmitter so his radio could pick up Samba Nova from Jamaica. So get into the groove and it will all be good. Forget about 88.2. Just leave plenty of headroom and stay 24bit 44.1. Use MP-4 not MP-3.

Besides one or two accurate posts about a certain mic you could actually listen to. Audition some of these tracks:http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JeffBlackburn

However I will play the role of the contrarian here: Is your neighborhood noisy? Then if the answer is yes. Dynamic Mics.

As far as 'brickwalling' anything. Do not use eq as this will mess up your recording more than anything. Bill Laswell tracks and mixes on a Neve with no eq. Phase distortion is the problem. Laswell finds the right mic and pre and that's it. Then mixes when the recording is done adding outboard effects, such as compression on bass or snare, verbs, etc..

Sennheiser makes a very inexpensive version of a previously expensive 'gold plated' 609 dynamic mic used by many artist both on stage for vocals and in the studio. It is the evolution series e609. I love this mic. It is the swiss army knives of mics. Guitar cabinets. Leslies. Rhodes. Vocals. But you must get right on the grill and work it. No windscreen. It has a huge diaphram and thus it's flat shape.

Don't fall for any hype about tubes as CMOS circuitry solid state is fine. Look for that IC type. CMOS.

Compression. For bass and snare. Not for vocals. Track with a very good limiter on your pre so your voice positions in the mix rather than stands out.

The example I posted audition the songs with solo guitar and vocals. All of this I recorded on an 001 (but I mapped out the cross talk and used channels not effecting each other). The dobro and flat picking was an overdub on a 96k Roland box. Can any of you hear the difference between the original fingerpicked acoustic and the overdubs. No. You can get 4 good channels out of an 001 for audiophile recording without buying expensive optical A/D converters. Clocks and all a mute point except perhaps for orchestral music with dynamics what is much more important is your mic pre.

One thing. You must bypass the mBox pre. So you need a Mic pre with hopefully a limiter and an output level control. You'll need a balanced trs to t/s 1/4 inch jack . Or if the output of the pre is XLR then XLR to t/s using the British pinouts. It not. Have a friend get out the soldering iron and fix it.

Listen to the vocals I posted. With the limiter his voice thins just barely but it fits into the mix (and guitar tracked with a little less limiter). This pre is out of your price range and is not available except maybe at the BBC studios as it came from a friend for this recording. Neumann TLM 103 condensor actually made in Germany.

My suggestion would be to decide on background noise factor. I could not repeat that here again. A living room recording. I would choose an RE 7 type if it was today because of noise. It has tripled. Personally that AT 4030 sounds too harsh to my ears but is a great mic for acoustic guitar, and I have heard some good blues singers record with it. I'd prefer a dynamic like the EV RE 7 or the real McCoy a 667a and a good windscreen. Test an RE-7 and buy the Senn regardless because it is a workhorse. Borrow a few Shure 57s/58s from bands you know These also need to be worked up close some may be damaged from road accidents and such so test them out to get one good Shure 57 and 58. Everything is a Chinese knock off these days. So it's really about the design. Because whether UA or Studioprojects or Rode all made in same factory in Bejing. In fact, their older Chinese mics became essentially the StudioProjects mics. I.E. the Telefunken of China. They were that good. The knock off EV RE 7 is still fairly affordable. Measure the distance the bass rolls off to your liking and set the windscreen there. Measure it. Mark this distance and write it on masking tape and check to see the windscreen hasn't moved. Work the windscreen close. Now have a friend record you not telling you which mic is which. Then listen back and make an unbiased decision. The post about large diaphrams like Neumann TLM 103 or Oktavia miniature is valid for soprano voices. Not for deeper voices. It is like an antenna too short for the long wavelengths to pickup so the low end is filled with odd harmonics. Maybe this is what the poster meant about the 'brickwall filter'. I have never used eq without noticing severe effects 'all around' the frequency regardless of how narrow the cue is. You'd never want to brickwall anything IMHO.

I love Aphex Aural Exciters. If you are to use a plugin get this. Use it to monitor your vocal takes. Peter Gabriel double tracks meticulously. But live he sounds great why? Aphex aural exciter type I or II. One has a lower noise floor. That mixer you mentioned has a high noise floor. Perhaps the poster about brickwall mispoke or it was a typo. We cannot hear below 20hz. Bone conduction below that for only a few more cycles.

A very famous artist blasts his mixes, without earphones, sitting on a big couch with space behind the couch. Some blankets or carpets on the walls. Using a dynamic mic up close to get that live feel. No cradle. Oktavia makes a rubber band type. But absent of that, you should place a pillow below your mic stand at least. That Sennheiser is not expensive. Here in USA they could be had for under $200. It is a 'huge' diaphram mic. Get up to it without a windscreen, blast your mix through the monitors and perform live in the privacy of your own home. One option.

None of those pres I have heard. CMOS solidstate Yes. Not any ART Tube BS. IMHO.

Sibillance. With condensors and cheap preamps this is your enemy besides self-consciousness. So perhaps it is better advice to stay away from condensors and go with the RE 7, Shure 57/58, or Senn 609 and test unbiased first. Do not compress. Keep levels middling and allow headroom. Forget about losing bits. I was told this by a master mixer who works everyday on Rupert Neve's big Amek. He has a TDM system besides the Studer. This is a tried and true tip on TDM systems that applies to Le.

If you can find a pre with a limiter it will color your vocals, thin them, but listen to the link I posted. A deep male voice like Johnny Cash. I mean getting back that Johnny Cash sound that gets lost. So some slicing of the gtr track has to be done. I am talking on the waveform level. Altering the gtr recording's phase by just perhaps a 1/4 a cycle. It makes such a difference. Our ears a super critical as position, or danger, such as a predator, we phase locate.

So two things: track with a good limiter that adds coloration but positions your voice in the mix so it doesn't jar or stand out. It should 'be in the pocket'. Secondly, you can ignore this if not playing live acoustic guitar. The artist above is not big on overdubbing or playing a song twice. It was hard capturing what I did. Only once did we attempt playing guitar, recording, then singing as the intonation was difficult on one particular song. It was like pulling teeth. So you go with the flow. He is not an artist you would even think of making suggestions too, it would be like asking Merle Haggard to play a song slower. It was like catching rainbows with a butterfly net. Nearly impossible but I succeded I think. A very private songwriter shares his publishing with one other artist. And that is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ducks

Maybe somebody here will read this post and suggest an inexpensive solid-state pre that has a tracking limiter go for that and find a friendly store. Leave them your watch or car keys. Anything to get that RE 7. But first you must buy the Sennheiser e609. It is just a smooth mic. I don't care what kind of money you throw at it in software. And if that post about the 4030 was from Pslim. Email me?

The limiter on 5.1.1 is like comparing a toy bike with a Harley Davidson when I refer to tracking. Coloration is considered good. Neve mic pres add coloration. But not a noticeable noise floor. So some call the Neve pre clean. This is a problem with reviewers and symantecs. Coloration but in the pocket of the mix and a live feel is the gold. Go for the gold.

Last edited by aka21stCentury; 04-29-2010 at 11:49 PM. Reason: brain drain
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2010, 12:43 AM
DanielPinho DanielPinho is offline
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Default Re: MBox 2 & its mic pre's

Wow, people here at DUC are usually helpful but I'm actually getting more help than I expected. Awesome!

Thanks albee1952, JazzyJ, browniespeaks, necjamc, aka21stCentury for your altruism. I'm still researching all information you threw here!

And aka21stCentury, did you know I'm from Brazil? I actually live in Rio. I've heard that Jorge Ben is well known internationally. He's the man! This is me by his side: http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7165/29032005.jpg

Just in time, I'm gonna post a song that reveals the best I can do (it's not much) with my gear. Recorded in Rio!
The song is written by myself and Maíra Charken, an actress/singer here in Brazil.

direct link (mp3): http://www.danielpinho.com.br/mp3/Da...20Me%20Too.mp3

For the vocals I actually borrowed a Neumann TLM103 (for both male and female). MBox2 pres.
Acoustic guitars: AKG C3000B; Eletric guitar: Shure Beta58A; active bass directly through line; Reason Pianos
I sing and play everything there, except for the drums and the female parts, obviously :-D
We're not american, so forgive us for the accent!

Thanks again for the info. Now I have a lot to study about gears!

regards,
Daniel
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