Midi idiot needing a little V-drum recording advice

[Kat5guy]

Not to long ago I posted that I was going to do a few experiments with trying to record with a V-drum kit via direct though PT LE via the 1/4 connections - and needed to figure out how to do it with all the I/o conenctioons. Solved that one, thanks guys!

However, now I've travelled into the midi arena, which is pretty wierd for an old duffer like myself. I have many questions... and most are probably no brainers, but I'm far to thick-skulled to figure it out.

1. when tracking midi (assuming I'm on an insturment track running midi with a plug in like Ezdrummer or BFD), how do I get it to produce the sounds so that the drummer can hear himself in real time while recording?

2. If I'm NOT using a plug-in, and running midi I/O between the V-drums and PT - how do I get it to produce the sounds so that the drumer can hear himself in real time while recording?

3. When listening back to a performance, what is it that I need to have set in the audio-out to hear it play back?

4. assuming a good drum performance was tracked, how do I record the performance back into PT on a different track - leaving the midi intact and muted and the "sound" of the performance on it's own stereo audio track?

5. can I isolate each sound in a midi performance during mix down? (i.e. pan certain parts of drums, volume levels on each peice of the kit, ect.) is that somthing that has to be done BEFORE mixing it down via the plugin GUI, or do I have to do a submix of it? ...can it be done at all?

Any help and/or advice is appreciated!

[flommer]

A couple concepts first that might help your overall understanding:

Your V-drum unit is kind of like a keyboard synth... It consists of a "controller" which, for a keyboard, is the keys and in your case the triggers. A controller allows the creation of the MIDI data only. THe V-Drum unit also consists of an "audio engine" or "audio synthesizer" which creates the actual audio that you can hear. For stand-alone use, these 2 parts of the V-drums (or a keyboard synth) are connected internally so that MIDI data from the controller goes directly to the audio engine and the result is you get audio at the outputs..

When you are working with a software sequencer (ProTools in this case), there are advantages to severing that internal connection. The setting on keyboards is usually called "local control". If you set local control to OFF, then when you play the triggers (or the keys) you will be creating MIDI data, but that won't be making it to the audio engine, so no audio is produced. You route this MIDI data to a MIDI track (or Instrument track) in ProTools so you can record it. But you also have to route the MIDI data back to some instrument that can use it to create audio. There is a setting in ProTools called MIDI THRU which will always pass the incoming MIDI from a controller to the instrument you specify as you are playing. If you don't have MIDI THRU checked, then ProTools will only send recorded MIDI during playback..

So.. If you have MIDI cables going to both the INs and OUTs between the V-drum and ProTools (2 cables, 1 each way), this is what will be happening during recording:

You play the triggers, which creates MIDI. This MIDI data is not sent directly to the V-drum audio engine (because local control is off), but is instead sent to PT. In PT, the MIDI will be routed to a MIDI track, where it is recorded, and then passed back out of PT to the V-drum audio engine (because MIDI THRU is checked). The audio from the V-drum can be brought back into ProTools using either AUX Inputs (if you just want to monitor the audio) or Audio Tracks (if you want to record the audio as well as the MIDI).

One more note is that Instrument tracks are only a combination of the functions of MIDI tracks and AUX inputs. They only record MIDI, but they allow you to route both the audio and the MIDI data...

With those things in mind..

1. If you want the drummer to hear BFD, then MIDI thru needs to be checked, and the drummer is going to need some kind of monitoring from ProTools to hear it. BFD can be inserted on an AUX or a Inst track.. To record the audio from plugin instruments, they need to be inserted on an AUX or Inst track, and then bussed to the inputs of an Audio track. You can't record the output of a plugin that is inserted on an audio track.

2. For the Drummer to hear the V-drum audio engine, you need local control off (so the audio engine doesn't get double MIDI notes from PT and the internal trigger connection at the same time), MIDI THRU checked, and the audio from the Vdrums routed into PT via auxes or Audio tracks, and out to some monitoring that the drummer can hear (Headphones, etc.. ) This lets the drummer hear a mix of other instruments in PT as well as the drums.

3. Not exactly sure what you are asking here... To playback, all you need is your MIDI track routing data to either a plug-in instrument, or your V-drum module. Then that audio needs to be routed within protools to some monitoring..

4. To record the audio from the vdrums, just route them to audio tracks and record. The MIDI track will send MIDI out, the vdrum module will create audio that you can record just like any other line-level audio source.. To record the audio from a plugin, like BFD, see answer 1.

5. You have several options here. With BFD, you can control panning, level etc for each drum from within the plugin. You can also (I'm pretty sure) send the individual drum sounds out to their own audio tracks so you can do panning, levels, effects there as well. To do this with the V-drums depends on how many outputs the module has.. I'm sure you can set this up within the vdrum module too. Assuming it only has 2 or 4 outputs, and you want individual audio tracks in PT for tweaking, then this could work:

Set up mono audio tracks for each drum. Set up you V-drum module so that all it's sounds are either full left (so you're only using a mono sound coming out the left) or panned right up the middle (so it doesn't matter which side you record. I'd probably do this) The reason I mention this is that I'm sure the vdrum will have some panning already assigned and it might mean some sounds wouldn't record at the correct level. Anyway, the next step is to go through and filter your MIDI track so that only a single drum plays back at a time. I'm pretty sure you could use a MIDI realtime filter to do this. The other option is to split your MIDI track into individual midi tracks for each drum. this has some editing advantages as well. To do this:

take your single drum midi track, change its track view to "regions"
select the whole region
right-click and choose "event operations>select/split notes"
Under "Pitch criteria", choose all notes
Under "action" choose split notes, copy, to a new track per pitch, then apply

Now, just go through and solo just the audio track you are recording to and the MIDI track for the drum you are recording and record them one at a time. If you have multiple audio outputs on the Vdrum, you could assign them to individual outs, and this would let you record more than 1 track at a time, but all the screwing around in the v-drums and in routing the audio track ins might not save you that much time...

I hope all this is making some sense... I didn't plan on typing a book

[Kat5guy]

Excellent!!! Thanks for the in-depth overview of how it works! You've help me understand the Midi concept 10x more than what I did before I read your reply! However, I still have run into a few techincal glitches… may or may not be me, and might be the hardware/v-drums…

Originally Posted by flommer

So.. If you have MIDI cables going to both the INs and OUTs between the V-drum and ProTools (2 cables, 1 each way), this is what will be happening during recording:

You play the triggers, which creates MIDI. This MIDI data is not sent directly to the V-drum audio engine (because local control is off), but is instead sent to PT. In PT, the MIDI will be routed to a MIDI track, where it is recorded, and then passed back out of PT to the V-drum audio engine (because MIDI THRU is checked). The audio from the V-drum can be brought back into ProTools using either AUX Inputs (if you just want to monitor the audio) or Audio Tracks (if you want to record the audio as well as the MIDI).

One more note is that Instrument tracks are only a combination of the functions of MIDI tracks and AUX inputs. They only record MIDI, but they allow you to route both the audio and the MIDI data...

2. For the Drummer to hear the V-drum audio engine, you need local control off (so the audio engine doesn't get double MIDI notes from PT and the internal trigger connection at the same time), MIDI THRU checked, and the audio from the Vdrums routed into PT via auxes or Audio tracks, and out to some monitoring that the drummer can hear (Headphones, etc.. ) This lets the drummer hear a mix of other instruments in PT as well as the drums.

3. Not exactly sure what you are asking here... To playback, all you need is your MIDI track routing data to either a plug-in instrument, or your V-drum module. Then that audio needs to be routed within protools to some monitoring..

okay, so I've gotten as far as hooking it all up for tracking and playback, and hit a few brick walls here and there. however, It might be my lack of understanding on how the I/O's are set up internally and externally…

First off, I decided to try the the Direct-to-the-v-drum approach (2-midi cables). I'm getting a VERY mild signal on the left channel of the stereo insturment track I created… but nothing else. Armed the track, and no sound, no triggers… nothing. I've set "local control" on the v-drum to "off", MIDI THRU is checked in PT, but at this point I think this is where I've gotten lost… do I set up the AUX out for sound on the insturment track (both for play back and during the performance) in the mix window? or do I create an separate AUX track and BUS the the Insturment track over to the AUX track? Or… do I need to do something else entirely? LOL! I noticed that at the top of the Insturment track with the midi, there is I/O options at the very top, and I set the IN to "All" an the OUT to "Channel 10".

…or could it be there needs to be somthing set on the V-drum brain that I've missed?

1. If you want the drummer to hear BFD, then MIDI thru needs to be checked, and the drummer is going to need some kind of monitoring from ProTools to hear it. BFD can be inserted on an AUX or a Inst track.. To record the audio from plugin instruments, they need to be inserted on an AUX or Inst track, and then bussed to the inputs of an Audio track. You can't record the output of a plugin that is inserted on an audio track.

4. To record the audio from the vdrums, just route them to audio tracks and record. The MIDI track will send MIDI out, the vdrum module will create audio that you can record just like any other line-level audio source.. To record the audio from a plugin, like BFD, see answer 1.

I had a bit more luck here… after bombing out on getting the v-drum brain to respond, I disconnected the MIDI out cable from the PT interface, and added the BFD plugin on the track, went to the mix window and changed the I/O at the top of the track to BFD and got a response! Granted, it's actaully BFD lite, and the options are terrible and the GUI is not user friendly to say the least, (I have EZdrummer en route to me now) but what matters it that as the drummer hit a pad, it triggered sounds! I ran out of time last night to test run it as far as recording anything, and bus'ing it over to another track… but the good news is that I got sound this route as I spent hours messing with the set up proccess with no real results until this point.

The dummer wants to monitor his V-drum sounds through the roland brain while performing, and then go back and use a plugin to trigger the midi notes for mix down. The plugin part I think I have nailed… but the part with using the V-drum brain to monitor the actaul performance with tracking seems to be eluding me still… what am I missing here?

I hope all this is making some sense... I didn't plan on typing a book

It's been a massive help -Thanks for taking the time to lay it out in such detail!

[albee1952]

You can record the midi from the Vdrums and feed the Vdrum L&R outputs to a stereo track(aux OR audio) for monitoring during recording(mute the software drums).

[flommer]

I noticed that at the top of the Insturment track with the midi, there is I/O options at the very top, and I set the IN to "All" an the OUT to "Channel 10".

That's a good thing.. By default, that view is often not checked leading to much confusion...

Remember that an instrument track = an Aux + a MIDI track. So if you are using an inst track, you already have an AUX for monitoring the instrument.

Instrument tracks are convenient in some ways, but they do lead to confusion. I would suggest that while getting used to how to make this stuff work, just use MIDI tracks and AUXes. This will force you to route things manually and have better visibility of what is going where.

So to use this with the external V-drums you need:

One MIDI track, input set to "all", output set to either:
Vdrum>channel (whatever the V-drum is set to accept incoming MIDI on)
or
Predefined>(Digi interface name)>channel(whatever the V-drum is set to accept incoming MIDI on)

The first option is if you have your V-drums defined correctly in MSS (for peecee) or AMS (for Mac). The second option is if it is not defined, ProTools will just send the MIDI to the channel and the port you tell it to..

Then you just need an AUX, Inputs set to whatever physical inputs the V-drums are plugged into. The output of the AUX should be, by default, Analog 1-2...

By the way, What kind of Digi interface do you have?

Also note... If the drummer is content to hear the Vdrum during tracking, then you don't need to pass the MIDI thru protools... You could just turn local control back on, Uncheck MIDI thru, but still record the incoming MIDI to a MIDI track.. You'll still want to monitor through PT, I'm guessing, to hear the mix. The critical thing here is that you are recording the MIDI. Once you have that in the can, then all your editing/sound possibilities are all still available after the fact..

[Kat5guy]

By the way, What kind of Digi interface do you have?

That's a good question! I'm going through an Mbox 2 at the moment while running PT LE 7.3

I think I might have this midi thing licked! ...well at the moment anyways. Once I started to visualize it in my head and messing with things, it seemd to open a huge door and it all started to become clear... thanks for all the advice!

I couldn't get the V-drum brain to produce sounds via midi no matter what I tried, and eventually ran a 1/4 connection to the interface and made a seperate audio track from it and used that to monitor the drums during performance. I have a feeling it has something to do with a setting in the V-drum brain, as every step taken (which was not many in teh end) deemed no results from the v-drum brain for sound whatsover converning sound.

However, We had some time to mess around with using the V-drums (monitored) and then playing back the audio with the plug-in and visa-vera, and noticed that just running with the plug-in while playing thorugh a perfomance not only sounded better, but there was a lot less latency! So... We ditched the 2nd midi cable and threw the whole V-drum brain-sound-as-a-monitor idea out the perverbial window, and just went to town on the insturment track with EZdrummer loaded in real time. Sound and performance was fantastic!

I want to note - After using Ezdrummer, I doubt I'll be opeing up BFD anytime soon, although a commendable program, BFD is not nearly as user freindly by any streatch as EZDrummer, and the flexability to it concerning sound selection on individual drums is very slim, especially when recording music that requires a little more "umph" (hard rock/Metal) However, the EZdrummer DFH plug in sounds fantastic! I don't think I care to see another acoustic kit in the studio again! LMAO!

In any case, the only issue I am having at this point, is trying to get the TD-20 to send the correct midi notes to Ezdrummer's key map. I think I've dug into every online search and the roland TD20 owners manual a dozen times, and I can't find anything that tells you how to change the midi out signal in the V-drum to trigger "X" drum/cymbal in EZdrummer on the piano roll.

A majority of the TD-20 kit is spot on with the key map for EZdrummer (snare, hi-hat, kicks, 3 out of 4 toms) however, the TD-20 we are using now has been modified with several additional triggers (routed as AUX on the brain) and I can't get the remain kit to trigger what's designated or figure out how to tell "X" trigger in the brain to hit "Y" midi note on the piano roll... very furstrating.

This key mapping thing is the only real hurdle I am having at this point... any pointers on getting that to work would be VERY appreciated!