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  #71  
Old 05-20-2024, 06:41 AM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

I am on 2023.12.1, Mac Studio Ultra M1. I feel like all the stuff I'm experiencing now also occurred on 2021.6, which I used for years. RE: The Click - If you go to Setup > Click Countoff, you have the option of routing the Click to an external MIDI device, or an internal VI. For years I had a dedicated MIDI track of 1/4 notes that was my click, that pointed to an EQ'd Boom kick drum. (I've always hated the internal click) Recently I realized I could just send the click output straight to the Boom track from the Click Options window, bypassing the MIDI 1/4 note track. But then after a few weeks using that, and wondering why I was having such a hard time recording MIDI tracks "in time", I realized there was latency in the click when I used that option. The MIDI 1/4 track itself is way tighter. When I play the two clicks together I get noticeable flam. Why would that be? And even on my fancy new M1 Studio I can't record MIDI at a Buffer higher than 64 without frustrating lag. I don't get it. Also I don't understand why most of my VI's don't display any system delay. Is that accurate? Or are they introducing delay that isn't being detected by Pro Tools? It all just seems like a big mess. But as I've said before, there are clearly a LOT of people out there using MIDI in Pro Tools every day, so I wonder if I've just got something configured wrong, or some other issue in my system



Quote:
Originally Posted by skylar_battles View Post
Of course, my pleasure! We really needs answers on this stuff! I suppose the issue is that Pro Tools is being accurate rather than "smart" as Apple likes to say. I am really hoping they understand and address the issue which is really a mis-feature, because it's a bit discouraging the way it is now if my assessment is correct! You're working on 2023.12 or 2024.3? I have an unfortunate feeling it's always been this way What do you mean by Pro Tools click options point to Boom? Can you explain your routing? Avid, implement a solution for this :)

UPDATE: Video added demonstrating that at 1024 buffer, you must play what sounds late on recording for it to sound sound earlier (in time) on playback

1024 Buffer MIDI Recording

You can clearly hear in the video I have to make it sound late when recording on purpose for it to sound in time after recording.

I’ll also add that for all my testing I’ve been using the computer keyboard to record MIDI, which removes USB latency and external controller latency from the equation.
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  #72  
Old 05-20-2024, 09:12 AM
Daniel Wade Daniel Wade is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Hi All,

I had a case ("Major latency issue with SD3 after upgrade to 2024.3.1" [Case : 04798381]) which Avid closed hastily, only by giving instructions to roll back.
... My Superior Drummer 3 midi tracks have been giving me fits... Massively late out-of-sync; but not always. Sometimes they work. Also, sometimes, if I make a new track, load SD3 plug in and import the midi drum track it will often work. But if I then delete the first SD3 track, the newly created track goes out-of-sync.
I've done a fair amount of programming, and this looks like an initialization error in a variable. Are you listening AVID?
Get this fixed please... you had no business rolling out 2024.3.1 with a bug this massive.
Thanks in Advance
Dan Wade
---
PT Studio 2024.3.1 Presonus DAW, Ryzen 9, Win10
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  #73  
Old 05-21-2024, 10:43 AM
marianna's Avatar
marianna marianna is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Wade View Post
Hi All,

I had a case ("Major latency issue with SD3 after upgrade to 2024.3.1" [Case : 04798381]) which Avid closed hastily, only by giving instructions to roll back.
... My Superior Drummer 3 midi tracks have been giving me fits... Massively late out-of-sync; but not always. Sometimes they work. Also, sometimes, if I make a new track, load SD3 plug in and import the midi drum track it will often work. But if I then delete the first SD3 track, the newly created track goes out-of-sync.
I've done a fair amount of programming, and this looks like an initialization error in a variable. Are you listening AVID?
Get this fixed please... you had no business rolling out 2024.3.1 with a bug this massive.
Thanks in Advance
Dan Wade
---
PT Studio 2024.3.1 Presonus DAW, Ryzen 9, Win10
Good news all....... Engineering has reproduced this and they have a bug logged for it PT-262860 (MIDI incorrectly placed on timeline, determined by H/W buffer setting).

There has been some improvement in what is under development now and we expect more in a future release as well.

Thank you paul g, innerbooty, Shefi, gills, Daniel Wade, strawb and indeloon85 - those who created a case or we did for you.

I have associated that bug # with your cases and informed your tech agent.

Thank you skylar_battles for the help and the invaluable testing information that you provided to us and engineering. Whooo hoooooo. thank you!!!!!!!!

Im responding to your email now.

Marianna
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  #74  
Old 05-21-2024, 12:24 PM
skylar_battles skylar_battles is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Email from Avid:

Thank you for all your inputs regarding this issue. We wouldn't have made the testing easier if it wasn't for your notes. Your issue has already associated with bug number PT-262860. Updates will be made available to affected users once it becomes available.

Feel free to reach us if you have questions.

Best Regards,

Thanks for your response again! Yes I imagine it's been this way for a while now! I tried that for the click with BOOM and just gives me this kick snare thing... interesting. Same for you? Interesting that the click flams from those different methods. I'm not sure why that would be. I did a fair amount of MIDI recording over the weekend and it felt ok. 128 is doable I think.

How to use KEEP LATENCY in Ableton Live 12

Also here is a use case similar to what I mentioned where it is recommended to actually use "keep latency." I don't quite understand this explanation. It does say that in almost all other cases the you turn keep latency off.

"Who is the Ableton Keep Latency feature for?
As I already mentioned the feature of KEEP LATENCY is to be able to turn it OFF.

However in some use cases the recorded latency can make sense. When you sync a hardware synth and outboard gear e.g. via a MIDI Clock you might shift Ableton Live’s audio out to come out later. This way the the audio will match up with the hardware synth when the hardware synth audio is being routed back into Ableton Live.

Once you recorded the hardware synth into Ableton Live, the recording would now need to get delayed for playback. “Keep Latency” would record and would playback with the latency needed to have both in sync.

IF “Keep Latency” is activated:

Ableton Live will print the Roundtrip Latency (the sum of the in and out latency) on the recording
IF Delay Compensation is active and IF there are effects introducing latency, this latency time will be added as well
IF “Reduce Delay Compensation When Monitored” is activated, no Delay Compensation latency will be applied to the recording"


I can't quite understand this once because in the past when using hardware synced to Ableton's Beat Clock (Sync in Ableton terminology) the audio of the passage would always come out late. Can someone explain what the poster of the article means by their routing?

Also to moderators, could you reopen case 04803090 for me or should I call support to have them reopen it? I forgot to respond in time, but I'm happy to compile the necessary materials for the bug report. Thanks everyone.
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Last edited by skylar_battles; 05-21-2024 at 02:42 PM.
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  #75  
Old 05-21-2024, 12:47 PM
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tope d tope d is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylar_battles View Post
....

Also to moderators, could you reopen case 04803090 for me or should I call support to have them reopen it? I forgot to respond in time, but I'm happy to compile the necessary materials for the bug report. Thanks everyone.
Hi there!
I've re-opened the case. Bret will be in touch soon. You can also reply to their previous Email with the info needed.

Thanks!
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  #76  
Old 05-21-2024, 02:25 PM
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paul_g paul_g is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

[QUOTE=skylar_battles;2701646]Email from Avid:

Thank you for all your inputs regarding this issue. We wouldn't have made the testing easier if it wasn't for your notes. Your issue has already associated with bug number PT-262860. Updates will be made available to affected users once it becomes available.
QUOTE]


Thanks Skyler, this is great news. I too received an email from Marianna today stating they were able to reproduce the issue in their lab and got assigned the same bug number (as I'm sure it's all related). Hopefully it will make it to the next release.
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  #77  
Old 05-21-2024, 05:13 PM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Avid support reached out to me as well. In fact yesterday I even noticed a PM that I'd missed from Mariana a month or so back. Very nice they're being so proactive about this issue. I need to do more methodical troubleshooting for them before I reply. But first I need to find the time! Super busy with work now. Things I need to isolate are - do Aux and Instrument tracks behave the same with latency? I have only ever used Aux tracks for VIs. Also, all the sessions I am working on now were originally created in PT 2021.6.1 on a Cheesegrater HDX rig. Need to see if create a session from scratch in 2023.12.1 makes a difference.

As for the Boom click, I set the regular click to C1 and the emphasized click also to C1, and make the velocity of both 120, so it's just a steady. Then I roll lows and highs off the Boom kick so it's just a neutral thud. That's my click. With certain sessions that have a lot of plugins (but none with massive delay) I get a very noticeable flam between the Pro Tools MIDI Boom click and the same notes generated from a MIDI track. Sounds like you are getting that too. I've been finding I need to work at a Buffer of 64 to minimize noticeable MIDI latency. Even then it's like whatever I play doesn't "print" where I heard it when I played it. Makes me feel like I can't play in time anymore. But I need to get more methodical in checking it out



Quote:
Originally Posted by skylar_battles View Post
Email from Avid:

Thank you for all your inputs regarding this issue. We wouldn't have made the testing easier if it wasn't for your notes. Your issue has already associated with bug number PT-262860. Updates will be made available to affected users once it becomes available.

Feel free to reach us if you have questions.

Best Regards,

Thanks for your response again! Yes I imagine it's been this way for a while now! I tried that for the click with BOOM and just gives me this kick snare thing... interesting. Same for you? Interesting that the click flams from those different methods. I'm not sure why that would be. I did a fair amount of MIDI recording over the weekend and it felt ok. 128 is doable I think.

How to use KEEP LATENCY in Ableton Live 12

Also here is a use case similar to what I mentioned where it is recommended to actually use "keep latency." I don't quite understand this explanation. It does say that in almost all other cases the you turn keep latency off.

"Who is the Ableton Keep Latency feature for?
As I already mentioned the feature of KEEP LATENCY is to be able to turn it OFF.

However in some use cases the recorded latency can make sense. When you sync a hardware synth and outboard gear e.g. via a MIDI Clock you might shift Ableton Live’s audio out to come out later. This way the the audio will match up with the hardware synth when the hardware synth audio is being routed back into Ableton Live.

Once you recorded the hardware synth into Ableton Live, the recording would now need to get delayed for playback. “Keep Latency” would record and would playback with the latency needed to have both in sync.

IF “Keep Latency” is activated:

Ableton Live will print the Roundtrip Latency (the sum of the in and out latency) on the recording
IF Delay Compensation is active and IF there are effects introducing latency, this latency time will be added as well
IF “Reduce Delay Compensation When Monitored” is activated, no Delay Compensation latency will be applied to the recording"


I can't quite understand this once because in the past when using hardware synced to Ableton's Beat Clock (Sync in Ableton terminology) the audio of the passage would always come out late. Can someone explain what the poster of the article means by their routing?

Also to moderators, could you reopen case 04803090 for me or should I call support to have them reopen it? I forgot to respond in time, but I'm happy to compile the necessary materials for the bug report. Thanks everyone.
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  #78  
Old 05-22-2024, 12:29 PM
skylar_battles skylar_battles is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Good questions as far as latency issues with AUX tracks with MIDI routed to the plugin vs. Instrument track. My guess is the issue would be equivalent in severity. With the audio output of the VI going straight to the master in either case, the audio component should be equally latent unless I’m mistaken. I think the MIDI component should be the same as well because the routing is straight to the VI. Hopefully track type doesn’t have a negative effect on instrument tracks because for it’s just simplest to work that way with VIs and of course one can always commit before mixing if they like.

I just set up the click with your method out of interest with a fairly empty session. Using your method of click, testing against another quarter note kick click (generated by CR8 sampler) from either an instrument track or an MIDI track routed to that plugin on an audio or AUX track, I’m not getting flamming, but I do believe you in experiencing that in a heavy session with delay compensation inducing plugins. And yes it seems Pro Tools is printing when when it receives it and does not delay the data by the buffer size amount by pushing forward (to the right) which may be the solution. There may be situations as stated in the newer unofficial Ableton article I linked where you would want to toggle this feature off or on for different situations, so I think it’s probably best if it is a track based toggle with a definable default state in MIDI preferences. In the same place as “Pitched” and “Note Chasing”
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  #79  
Old 05-22-2024, 12:53 PM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

I really need to look at it more closely and carefull. But even though my session was large, I had deactivated the most delay-intensive plugins, and still got the flamming. But there are so many variables. I only just realized after a couple of weeks of work that the Pro Tools click, when sent straight to a VI (Boom) from the Click Countoff options, was not tight with the grid. So even when I quantized stuff it sounded off. Super confusing...
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  #80  
Old 05-23-2024, 07:43 AM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Avid Customer Support has been very cool and proactive checking in with me about these MIDI issues, and they said the bug report had already been created and that they didn't need anymore info from me. I was just curious if anyone knows what exactly this bug report encompasses? Is there a way to see those online, or is it internal Avid only? It's bug PT-262860 Thanks!
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