Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Post Production > Post - Surround - Video

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-03-2008, 10:03 PM
AVGuru1 AVGuru1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 283
Default Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

I had the fortune of sitting with the fine folks at Fairlight today and got to not only build, but configure a Pyxis system. (HD model)

WOW.

Everything VVTR isn't, and everything it should be. Slave and Master controlled via PT, support for almost any QT based codec out there, including uncompressed, and an I/O card (BlackMagic) for output to a monitor / projector AND support for VGA/DVI output as well. Ability to set the offset for various video outputs, support for instantaneous video playback without transcoding with some codecs.

Timeline and marker based playback with support for MXF and OMF.

Onboard RAID in an HP box running Windows XP. Next step is to test one on a SAN (Facilis, Unity, etc.)

Plus, ADR options with streams, beeps, and text prompts.

Seems completely rock solid. Runs between 10 - 20K, depending on options.

No, I don't sell 'em, etc...but wow. In my quest for a robust Mix to HD Pix solution, this seems to get my vote.
__________________
.: michael kammes mpse
.: post audio
.: applications editor / workflow consultant
.: michaelkammes.com
.: lucidsound.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-04-2008, 02:54 AM
Kuba Pietrzak Kuba Pietrzak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Warszawa, Poland
Posts: 401
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Media Station PT with Satellite Option?

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...mediastation-s

Kuba
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-04-2008, 06:50 AM
AVGuru1 AVGuru1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 283
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Of course.

1. In an Avid only environment.
2. With Unity. (30K minimum)
3...and a spare Unity license. ($$)
4. With only DNxHD as your HD format. (wait...HD isn't a full option yet, Digi has yet to release the HD Video Sat option, so right now you are locked to Digi's I/O, using their SD Codecs. Plus, right now, Avid is the only thing that can reliably export Avid centric (MXF) HD files. The DNxHD codec is constantly in flux. This ties up your video edit bay / station as an encode / export box.
5. PC Only (Bootcamp may be an option with Pyxis)
6. No full screen synced playback of HD, SD only.

So currently , it's more expensive, and seems to kill flexibility for non Avid, non Unity users, and HD playback needs. That is way to much of a hindrance for me.
__________________
.: michael kammes mpse
.: post audio
.: applications editor / workflow consultant
.: michaelkammes.com
.: lucidsound.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-05-2008, 06:17 AM
Postman Postman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: where land meets sky
Posts: 2,375
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Hi Michael,

MediaStation|PT with Video Satellite has more going for it than you may think, it does everything you say in your first post, with the exception of multiple offset settings (only 1 is needed in Pro Tools for it), and there is no real time effects editing that would allow for text and ADR streamers. That is a big deal for Pyxis! Those COULD be added if Avid will get off its behind and put them back into MediaStation. (MediaStation is really Avid Express Pro, but with most editing features removed. That removal is a bad, bad decision and could be easily rectified.)

I take issue with your next post because MediaStation/VidSat works in a standalone environment just fine. Unity not required. DNxHD is NOT the only HD codec supported. Where did you get that idea? You can import lots and lots of things. "Ah but Pyxis can play them in real time!", you say. True, but importing guarantees very consistent performance no matter what you start with. I don't find it to be a major hindrance. Also, while it is true that the only current Avid hardware support is SD, you can still create and run HD media and HD timelines in many, many framrerates and resolutions. You can play HD out into the SD hardware, this is a real time down convert and looks great, as simple as flipping a switch. Or, you can turn off the hardware and use the computer's DVI-I graphic card for full screen analog or digital component picture output to your projector or monitor. I have to believe that genlocked HD hardware support, like MOJO DX, is coming soon but until that happens, this is a viable workaround that costs nothing more. I should also mention that MediaStation doesn't need hardware at all. You can run using just the cpu audio and graphics outputs.

Also, I do not see how it is more expensive! No way. You can easily, very easily, build a new HP with VideoSatellite with a MOJO for the same or less than a Pyxis. I'm not going to tell you how much I spent putting mine together but it was under 10k, and I have mirrored boot drives and stripped SCSI video drives. The system can do real time uncompressed HD, so I don't think I've compromised anything to save money.

Finally, if I HAD to make a choice right now I'd look seriously at Pyxis because of its streaming and text capabilities, but as a longer-term investment I have reservations. HD hardware support for Video Satellite HAS to be forthcoming, I'm sure Digi didn't introduce VideoSatellite at the end of SD's life cycle without plans to support HD. I've been burned too many times with third party solutions that rely on a fourth party's hardware. Fairlight with HP with Blackmagic? It is easy to get shafted somewhere along the upgrade path, since everything is interlinked. At least with a Digi/Avid product you've got one or two less doors to pound on when something goes wrong.

Just a different point of view.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-05-2008, 06:48 AM
minister's Avatar
minister minister is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 4,847
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGuru1 View Post
I had the fortune of sitting with the fine folks at Fairlight today and got to not only build, but configure a Pyxis system. (HD model)

WOW.

Everything VVTR isn't, and everything it should be. Slave and Master controlled via PT, support for almost any QT based codec out there, including uncompressed, and an I/O card (BlackMagic) for output to a monitor / projector AND support for VGA/DVI output as well. Ability to set the offset for various video outputs, support for instantaneous video playback without transcoding with some codecs.

Timeline and marker based playback with support for MXF and OMF.

Onboard RAID in an HP box running Windows XP. Next step is to test one on a SAN (Facilis, Unity, etc.)

Plus, ADR options with streams, beeps, and text prompts.

Seems completely rock solid. Runs between 10 - 20K, depending on options.

No, I don't sell 'em, etc...but wow. In my quest for a robust Mix to HD Pix solution, this seems to get my vote.
Pyxis is indeed a good product. Some major facilities use them. They also integrate well with the Soundmaster ION.

I am still not sure how it is clearly better than VVTR Pro on a big system, except for switching VVTR from Slave to Master and perhaps text prompt integration. VVTR Pro does have ADR options. With the right hardware, you can play any codec out there.

To get Full uncompressed HD to playback you need :

VVTR Pro $1899 (USD)
Mac Pro 8 core approx. $3000 (USD) depending on options.
HD Card like a Kona 3 $2500 (USD) Lhe is only $1500
Storage for uncompressed HD around $3000-$4000 (USD) or obviously more....

∑ = $11,000 for one setup, but could be done for $10k easily. (and obviously a lot less if you don't need to go Uncrompressed HD and you don't need VVTR Pro.....)

I am not knocking Pyxis at all, but other than maybe 9-pin, MXF, and ADR text integration, I don't see how it is better than VVTR Pro. Can you eleborate on how you see it as better?
__________________
Tom Hambleton CAS
Ministry of Fancy Noises
IMDb
Undertone on Facebook
Undertone Custom Sound Libraries

"Groupable markers would be epochal!"
-Starcrash
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-05-2008, 07:02 AM
Postman Postman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: where land meets sky
Posts: 2,375
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Um, having just written my last post, I have to say one more thing...

Spending anything near 10k just for HD playback is absurd.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-05-2008, 08:48 AM
AVGuru1 AVGuru1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 283
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman View Post
Hi Michael,

MediaStation|PT with Video Satellite has more going for it than you may think, it does everything you say in your first post, with the exception of multiple offset settings (only 1 is needed in Pro Tools for it), and there is no real time effects editing that would allow for text and ADR streamers. That is a big deal for Pyxis! Those COULD be added if Avid will get off its behind and put them back into MediaStation. (MediaStation is really Avid Express Pro, but with most editing features removed. That removal is a bad, bad decision and could be easily rectified.)

I take issue with your next post because MediaStation/VidSat works in a standalone environment just fine. Unity not required. DNxHD is NOT the only HD codec supported. Where did you get that idea? You can import lots and lots of things. "Ah but Pyxis can play them in real time!", you say. True, but importing guarantees very consistent performance no matter what you start with. I don't find it to be a major hindrance. Also, while it is true that the only current Avid hardware support is SD, you can still create and run HD media and HD timelines in many, many framrerates and resolutions. You can play HD out into the SD hardware, this is a real time down convert and looks great, as simple as flipping a switch. Or, you can turn off the hardware and use the computer's DVI-I graphic card for full screen analog or digital component picture output to your projector or monitor. I have to believe that genlocked HD hardware support, like MOJO DX, is coming soon but until that happens, this is a viable workaround that costs nothing more. I should also mention that MediaStation doesn't need hardware at all. You can run using just the cpu audio and graphics outputs.

Also, I do not see how it is more expensive! No way. You can easily, very easily, build a new HP with VideoSatellite with a MOJO for the same or less than a Pyxis. I'm not going to tell you how much I spent putting mine together but it was under 10k, and I have mirrored boot drives and stripped SCSI video drives. The system can do real time uncompressed HD, so I don't think I've compromised anything to save money.

Finally, if I HAD to make a choice right now I'd look seriously at Pyxis because of its streaming and text capabilities, but as a longer-term investment I have reservations. HD hardware support for Video Satellite HAS to be forthcoming, I'm sure Digi didn't introduce VideoSatellite at the end of SD's life cycle without plans to support HD. I've been burned too many times with third party solutions that rely on a fourth party's hardware. Fairlight with HP with Blackmagic? It is easy to get shafted somewhere along the upgrade path, since everything is interlinked. At least with a Digi/Avid product you've got one or two less doors to pound on when something goes wrong.

Just a different point of view.
All good concerns, postman!

What set Video Satellite apart was that it can open an existing Avid sequence and play in back in realtime off Unity, then be chased and play out the picture. If not used in a shared environment, you've lost 1/2 the appeal of the device. You're still carrying a firewire drive to the box and copying it locally.

Avid can certainly understand other HD codecs but it has to transcode them on input into DNxHD (MXF). No "native" support without flipping it into MXF. For long form this can be horrible wait process...which ties up a station.

Yes, Avid is locked to SD Devices. Isn't that the whole bottleneck right there? Pyxis isn't. Fullscreen HD playback is also not supported on Avid, it;s a pretty small disclaimer, IMHO.

If there is anything I have found is that clients want uptime. Anyone can build a kluge workstation with cheap drives, etc, but I always go with what the vendors adheres to. IN this cse, I'm recommending the HP platform, XW 4400, xw8600s, etc. This will, of course, jack up the price on BOTH systems.

I like to play with what is supported in case massive problems arrise.

I do completely agree that Digi will have HD hardware support - eventually. For now? No. Will it be as flexable? No, I doubt it.

my 2 cents :)
__________________
.: michael kammes mpse
.: post audio
.: applications editor / workflow consultant
.: michaelkammes.com
.: lucidsound.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-05-2008, 05:57 PM
Postman Postman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: where land meets sky
Posts: 2,375
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

I really do understand your thinking and I don't disagree with most of it. Your choices are different than mine, that's all. The only comment you've made that I don't think is accurate is "Fullscreen HD playback is also not supported on Avid". Maybe I don't understand what you mean, because right now you can do fullscreen HD playback through DVI. I know that isn't enough to sway you, i'm just saying!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-05-2008, 06:04 PM
AVGuru1 AVGuru1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 283
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman View Post
I really do understand your thinking and I don't disagree with most of it. Your choices are different than mine, that's all. The only comment you've made that I don't think is accurate is "Fullscreen HD playback is also not supported on Avid". Maybe I don't understand what you mean, because right now you can do fullscreen HD playback through DVI. I know that isn't enough to sway you, i'm just saying!
According to Digi:

"Real-time down-conversion to SD is required for full-screen playback."

I know Avid Media Composer 3.0 Software can do fullscreen, but Media Station may not have that same ability...at least in sync. *shrugs*.

Glad you can appreciate my thought process, as I do yours!
__________________
.: michael kammes mpse
.: post audio
.: applications editor / workflow consultant
.: michaelkammes.com
.: lucidsound.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-06-2008, 03:32 PM
Postman Postman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: where land meets sky
Posts: 2,375
Default Re: Video Playback Alternative (Yet Again)

Hmm, yes, I see that now. Digi does state that, however that is NOT what happens here! I believe it is an error on Digi's site. MediaStation|PT can do the very same fullscreen playback as MC3. It is called Fullscreen mode and, if a DNA peripheral is not connected or if you choose not to use it (there is a button just for this purpose), you can press ctrl-shift-F and you get full screen video on whatever desktop monitor you choose. The resolution is certainly better than SD and it looks high def to me. My monitor can only show 1680x1050, but I have assumed that with a proper monitor I could go all the way. Sync, according to my Syncheck, is just as good (or bad?) as anything else through a non-genlocked display. In other words, within about 1/2 frame. You can make full frame adjustments to sync within Pro Tools, just like you can with Avid movies or with QT movies.

Interlaced and progressive video definitely behave differently in full screen mode. Interlaced video is not rendered to the progressive desktop correctly so there are motion artifacts. Avid provides some buttons to select that change this behavior, you have to select a compromise. In my opinion the best compromise has been to de-interlace the video. This is handled by one of those buttons and eliminates the motion artifacts. It is realtime, no waiting. I have had no problem at all with 24p material. I would hope that Pyxis handles that interlaced situation better, do you know for sure? I am anxious to know if this is going to be resolved somewhow with MOJO DX support. What I know now is that there is no problem with any material playing through MOJO, only that the resolution is standard def from MOJO. This is also a realtime downconvert. I've been so happy with the results that I have NOT re-rended video in standard def, the way the manual says I can for best results. And, with truly excellent source material, you'd be amazed at how good standard def component images can be!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No Video Playback 10 OR 11 sw rec Windows 0 11-21-2013 10:13 AM
Can not display video at alternative aspect ratios studioj11 Pro Tools 11 4 08-13-2013 05:36 PM
Is Video Satellite LE an alternative to Media Composer? Postman Post - Surround - Video 15 03-28-2010 08:20 AM
Video Playback PT LE and TDM bommimann Post - Surround - Video 4 05-06-2009 04:50 AM
DV Video Playback RS Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 2 01-31-2002 04:41 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:42 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com