calling the experts : how "HOT" do you record ?

[Paul Curtiz]

Hi guys,
When recording in PT, how "HOT" do you record your tracks ?
With the level of flexibility and adjustments we have when mixing in PT, I never really bother with getting absolutely "the hottest" signal before clipping. I tend to lay down ideas real fast and am not overly obsessed with the level issue. But I am trying to improve the quality of my mixes. I know different pre's would certainly make a difference. For the moment I'm going straight to the 001.
Also, I am mixing on NS10's which I know inside out (love 'em or hate 'em, they work for me), but I never mix at really high levels, so I wondered if any of you guys could tell me if you hear a big difference between a signal recorded "HOT" in the first place and one which has been given a gain boost by using Audiosuite/Gain or the RTAS/Trim.

Also, how does a Hot signal vs a lower signal affect the PT mix bus ?

Cheers,

[Rail Jon Rogut]

You have 6dB before you lose a bit.. so I usually keep my levels between -5dbFs and 0dbFs... but I don't mix "in the box".

Recording a low level signal and then digitally boosting it is not advisable for many reasons.

Rail

[gerax]

It depends on the sources I'm tracking, but I tend to stay in the -6 to 0dBFS (...and I sometimes get an over on really dynamic tracks... [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ), but I always ask for the maximum dynamic the musicians will reach and calibrate my input to that being the highest peak on my meters (usually in that window). I sometimes use compression to get a little more level without overshoots, and in some cases it works wonders on the overall sound of the track; last I do a fair amount of gain riding going in when I know a hotter peak is coming I'll turn down a couple of dBs and bring it back again afterwards (a move to be done gently but quick), so I act like some kind of human compressor ( [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ).

I noticed that tracking at hotter levels makes a real difference in the quality of the track: you use almost all of the dynamic and resolution available which is always a good thing, even in digital recording, where as you approach the least significant bit the quantization process will cause some loss in the conversion.

Tracking low and bringing the volume up in audiosuite will only raise the volume, but the information converted will be the same, so that may be helpful in certain caes, not to improve the sound of a track.

As for mixing, I vary my levels often, so that you get the perspective of the balance and tone of the mix at several levels: from full out 87db to whisper quiet; the human ear starts to get linear around 80 dbSPL so that would be an ideal area of level to mix at, but it can wear you off in the long run, so I try to vary and find volumes I'm comfortable with, than check the result at high level and low level, even going out of my control room.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[vonbleak101]

I try to keep it under -3. So then i still have a bit of room to move with, digital clipping is very nasty. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[dmaxj]

I record/compose mainly hip hop music. The dynamics are usually all over the place during the sessions. One thing I did notice while trying to get used to recording with PT, is that even if a track showed that it was clipping, playback was okay.

I use the 001, and I have the gain in the hardware options/setup lowered to -5db. So I think that this helps.

Peace

[Calvin]

While there is alot of extra room in there for clipping, I would deffinately stay away from that. Even if it dosen't make the digital distortion it still seems to change the sound just slightly, to me it seems to close up, I'm not really sure how to discribe it. Anyway, I would stay away from that if possible. I try to record around 0 dB but I have read a couple posts in the TDM forum about how they prefer the sound of pro-tools when recorded at lower levels.

[badperson]

I try to record around 0 dB but I have read a couple posts in the TDM forum about how they prefer the sound of pro-tools when recorded at lower levels.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If they are only going into the yellow during tracking, how do they get a strong signal on the final mix? Is that done using soundforge, or L1, or something in the mastering stage?


I'm sure I'm doing this wrong, but my tracks almost always go in the red. I set the levels so the meter goes into the red without distorting. Then in the mix (for acoustic guitar, for example) I add a limiter to bring the level to where it has a good sound. I use a Master fader that barely hits the red to control the overall level.

I'm sure this isn't the optimal way to do it. Any other suggestions?

thanks.

thanks.

[Paul_m]

I was recording a woman singer in my apartment the other day and having trouble getting any kind of decent level. She sings really quiet and plays guitar really quiet. If I turned the preamps (001) up all the way she still wouldn't top it out, plus it added a ton of noise. I don't really know what to do. I boosted the gain through RTAS but I know that has negative sound implications.

[Park Seward]

Some simple solutions:
Move the mics closer, use condensor mics over dynamics since they usually have higher output or get a better outboard mic pre.

You can also use gain in the compressor plug-in or the Trim plug-in. It may sound to you better than adding more gain to the mic pre.

Make sure you don't have the mic pad switch pressed.

I like to record at a lower level than some. More on levels from Dave LeBolt:

* So What Is a “Good” Recording Level?

All that our User Guide attempts to outline is that you should not clip, but you should record at reasonable levels (allowing for peaks in your performance) that make use of the entire range of the converter to get the best results. What’s a good rule of thumb? Probably allow peaks to get within 3 dB of clip, and you’re there. But if you record a fair bit lower or just a tad higher, you won’t be hurt.

With live performance, it’s probably not a good idea to try to stay really close to the top of the meter scale, because inevitably, one of those darn people performing will just hit that instrument or sing just a little louder, or stomp that Foley step harder, and then you’ve clipped. That’s what’s nice about 24 bit… you have a bit more headroom to play with.

With a properly designed converter system, the converter itself (and the analog electronics that surround it) are designed not to distort at all until you clip, so the points made in this thread about avoiding getting anywhere within 10 or more dB of clip would not be valid. If your converter system supplies specs that indicate distortion measurements at various levels, this could give you an idea of what to expect.

If you want to record quite a bit lower, that’s your choice… but in a real way you’ll be “throwing away bits” when you do so. The lower you go, the lower the resolution of the recorded signal is. With good 24-bit converters, this will be far less obvious than in the older 16-bit world, but it will occur nonetheless.

Coming from the analog recording world, this takes some getting used to. On an analog tape machine, you gently enter the world of tape compression (gradual distortion giving way to harsher clipping), until finally, you’re losing top, and it’s sounding lousy. (But a lot of people like what happens as you’re going a bit “over the top,” as we all know.)

At very low levels, you’re going “down into the noise” and you can hear “way down” (many dB into the noise floor, which is quite smooth).

Digital recording has its own set of rules, and recording at a healthy level is a generally a good thing… but no need to overdo it. With some source material (especially the notorious “jangly key” test), you may find that you get better results from preamps and converters at lower levels… with these types of sounds you may want to just trust your ears instead of solely relying on the meters.

And another opinion:

A composer and conductor, recordist who has worked quite a lot with your London Phil Jules, Phantom o T. O. etc, etc, asked me one day at a mastering session what was wrong with his mixes, why don't they have any life? I said you are hitting everything and the dat too hot. He called me a few months later and said that, by lowering his input levels all around; it was the single most important move he had ever made in the over all sound of his studio, in the quest to capture life like, classical digital audio. Quote "an amazing difference."

One funny comment made about direct to two track digital sessions by an old, old time infamous black American blues artist (now deceased) I was working with at the time was... when listening to the hot as possible mix Vs. the very conservative level mix, he said, "Da' first one sound like a tape of a man playing guitar and singing. Da' 2nd one sound like a man playing guitar and singing." ....And so it goes...

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Originally posted by Paul_m:
I was recording a woman singer in my apartment the other day and having trouble getting any kind of decent level. She sings really quiet and plays guitar really quiet. If I turned the preamps (001) up all the way she still wouldn't top it out, plus it added a ton of noise. I don't really know what to do. I boosted the gain through RTAS but I know that has negative sound implications.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Turn her headphone mix level down.. she'll perform louder.

Rail