Pro Tools Ultimate 2021.6, HDX with MTRX Studio AAE-9171 errors at 96k

[nistades]

Hi all,

I recently upgraded to an HDX card housed in the Avid Thunderbolt 3 Chassis connected via DigiLink to the MTRX Studio. I'm constantly getting AAE -9171 errors even in an empty session at 96k. I'll get through about 10-15 bars and then the error will kick in.

Here are my specs:
MacBook Pro 15-inch 2018
2.9 GHz 6-core Intel Core i9
32 GB DDR4 RAM

(HDX Chassis is plugged directly into the computer and yes I've tried different ports on both the left and right side of the machine).

I disabled the Wake for network access which I found somewhere on here helped. I also have Turbo Boost Disabled via Turbo Boost Switcher.

I have a CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 Dock but that is only for ethernet and my UAD 2 Quad Satellite (Thunderbolt 3) (latest UAD software 914) and USB hub.

I work mostly in 96k and that seems to be where the issue is. At 48k I can play an empty session perfectly fine without errors but as soon as I change to 96k using the HDX as playback, these errors pop up constantly. Changing the playback engine to Native or via my old RME Fireface UC or MacBook Pro speakers is fine.

I've updated the firmware on the HDX card when prompted, Sweetwater has sent me out a new HDX card and Thunderbolt 3 Chassis in case it was a hardware issue but nothing changed. I read somewhere on here that Avid says using this configuration at 96k requires more bus power? I may be misquoting but it does seem like the HDX is unhappy at any sample rate above 48k (88.2 also caused the same errors).

I tried this same configuration in an older Mac Pro (2012) in PCIe Slot 2 as recommended in the setup instructions but encountered the same error there as well.

Feel out of luck with HDX but hoping someone could shed some light or pointers I may have missed. Thank you!

[carlone]

Disconnect the UAD. May be too much bandwidth for your laptop.

[theAlien]

Your MBP has 2 distinct TB 3 busses with 40GBit/s, one each side with 2 ports each (both ports sharing one bus.)

40Gbit/s (per TB bus) = 5GB/s throughput
1 HDX card @ 192kHz@32bit x 64 I/O (via 2x DigiLink connection) = 192000 x 4 x 64 = 46,87 MB/s.
3 HDX cards = 3 x 46,87 = 140,62 MB/s.

(If I did no errors, still 4.8GB/s headroom. IIRC, all Apple TB3 laptops should deliver sufficient bus power according TB specs. Avid page says 96W power supply.)

But for the test,
1. just connect HDX, keep PT closed,
2. in AMS (Audio MIDI Setup) select HDX as system default and set to 96kHz,
3. try some audio player like Apple Music/iTunes, IINA or VLC, or the editor DSP-Quattro (demo available) using just CoreAudio,
4. download a demo DAW and do some tests (e.g., 10 tracks with audio files, CoreAudio+direct in DAW's audio settings.)

What do you get? And can you see anything strange in Activity Monitor (CPU, MEM, DISK) during your tests?

And can you specify macOS version and PT version, please? (If 2021.6, maybe download and test 2021.3, as well)

(I am in the market for a HDX TB MTRXSt Desktop Bundle. So, I have a vital interest in all developments regarding HDX+MTRXSt.)

[nistades]

Thanks guys.

@Carlone: I have tried disconnecting the UAD but still getting the same error in Pro Tools in a completely empty session.

@theAlien: Thanks for the calculations! Certainly glad to hear that the Apple TB3 laptops should deliver sufficient power. I am using the Avid Thunderbolt 3 Chassis which has its own power supply and the UAD satellite also has its own power supply so presumably they're both powered.

I did run your test... VERY interesting results.
Apple Music plays perfectly fine through the HDX set at default at 96k.
Nuendo 10.3 plays perfectly fine through the HDX at 96k 32bit float.

Back to Pro Tools 2021.6 and same error in an empty session.

I am on Catalina 10.15.7.

I'm in the middle of some projects so I'm hesitant to download another version of Pro Tools right now but I will deliver in a few days so hopefully after that I can test that.

The question I have though with that process is would I have to do a complete uninstall of Pro Tools and the HD Driver for 2021.6? Because I know you have to have the corresponding driver for both Pro Tools and the HD Driver.

Thanks!

[theAlien]

1. I had to update the calculations as I had misunderstood total amount of maximum channels. (I read 32in/32out per DigiLink somewhere on Avid's website and misinterpreted it as 64 concurrent I/O which would yield 128—64in/64out—with 2 ports. But PT Reference Guide explicitly states on page 43: 64 channels total per card.)

2. Re: your question. I'm afraid, to have a consistent and reliable test result, you should conduct your test on a fresh environment. You wrote you have a spare Mac Pro. You could install old PT version there after your project is finished.

Edit: So, I am truly confused, now. There is some discrepancy in the docs. I have looked in "Avid MTRX Studio Resource" document an Avid employee made public in another thread, which states:

"DigiLink 1 (1-32) and DigiLink 2 (33-64) each provide 32 channel conduits in and out of Pro Tools."

As a technical minded person I would simply prefer: "... provide 32 bidirectional channel conduits," which means crystal clear that 32 conduits are present and can be used in either direction in latch mode (= not at the same time.) Or I am just not compatible with this planet.

[nistades]

Hi ALN,

Thanks for your updates. I'm currently only using 1 DigiLink as I rarely do recording or outboard gear use so I'm only requiring stereo out at the moment although the intent is to be able to use it in a 7.1.4 Atmos situation with Dante etc. so the 32/32 in/out of the 1 DigiLink is fine for me for now.

2. Yes I agree. The spare Mac Pro is a friend of mines so I'd have to see if I can do a completely fresh install although there was basically nothing on it and I uninstalled most other software to test. I did install 2020.9 on there on High Sierra but had the same errors as well though I understand this isn't an entirely fresh environment.

New Development: At 48k 32bit float, things play absolutely fine. No errors at all. The difference I noted is that in the Session Setup, the Clock Master is set to MTRX Studio (as it should) but the dropdown menu to select a different clock (I don't have one currently) is enabled.

Whereas at 96k 32bit float, there are constant errors in an empty session and that dropdown menu for Clock Master is greyed out (while also being set to MTRX Studio as it should).

In the MTRX Studio itself the sample rate changes as it should between these two session tests and the Clock is set to Adapt to the DigiLink card as I'm told it should.

So the issue still seems to be the HDX/DigiLink connection being unhappy at 96k 32bit due to some 'clocking issue' which seems invisible to me. If I set the playback engine to any other (MacBook Pro Speakers, RME, Dante Virtual Soundcard), the errors disappear.

[theAlien]

You have ensured that HDX is not set as default in AMS, correct?

What are your settings in DADman? Any WC or Dante connections made?

SYNC
Source=internal
Sampling=???
AdaptTo=DigiLink1
(WC) Out=??? (Wordclock or Word Clock,base)

DANTE
S/R=??? (Free=MTRX or Follow=Dante Controller)
Preferred Master=??? (No=MTRX or Yes=Dante network)

Page 26,27 of Avid MTRX Operation Guide 5.4.1

Edit: Setup>Hardware should display a pretty much sparse panel with nothing useful to set as Reference Guide on page 103 states that any setup is to be made in DADman. So, enabled or greyed out dropdown for MTRX seems to not say much.

Question:
As you have set Clock Master to MTRX. What happens to your 48 or 96kHz project playback when you set Sampling=192 (or 44.1, 96) in DADman?

[theAlien]

From Pro Tools Expert from 2017 but read the bold part, maybe it helps better to understand and analyse your issue.

9171 Error In Pro Tools

This error usually pops up when the hardware buffer size is too low and relates to other CPU Overload Errors at Low Buffer Sizes, but the key issue is low buffer sizes.

In the Pro Tools 12.5 notes Avid report "CPU performance degradation with lower buffer sizes (AAE error -9171) with HDX"

When using Pro Tools 10.2 on a Mac or Windows dual-processor system and Host Processors in the Playback Engine is set to a number of cores that is equal to double the number of physical CPU cores, playback at the lowest available buffer sizes will throw up CPU Overload errors.

For example, if you have a dual 6-core CPU with Hyperthreading enabled, Pro Tools will allow 24 Host Processors to be used.

If you are using 32, 64, 128, or 256 sample H/W buffer sizes on a dual-processor system, then Avid recommend that you set Host Processors to the number of actual physical cores.

In the dual 6-core CPU example, the desired Host Processor setting to avoid errors strictly related to this bug would be 12.

This bug does not occur when the H/W buffer size goes above 256 but is seen most frequently at 32 and 64 sample buffer sizes. However, this bug is not known to occur on single CPU configurations.

A DAE -9171 error can be encountered when recording large track counts at high sample rates and low buffer sizes with the HD Native Thunderbolt interface, Pro Tools 10.3.2 or 10.3.3 and the 2011 MacBook Pro (non-Retina) computers with disk cache enabled.

This is an issue specific to the 2011 (non-Retina) MacBook Pro computers (8,1 8,2 and 8,3).

As a workaround, Avid recommend...

Use a different computer (Retina MacBook Pro computers do not encounter this error)
Turn Disk Cache off while recording at higher sample rates
Revert to Pro Tools 10.3 or 10.3.1
In some cases, raising the H/W Buffer size can help reduce the error.

[nistades]

Thanks ALN,

Through the help of a tech I was recommended, he 'sort of' managed to fix it by checking "YES" to Preferred master in the Dante section of DADman. Oddly enough, I now am not using any Dante but since it is built into the MTRX Studio, perhaps it's helping?

I was able to play an empty Pro Tools session at 96k 32bit float with no problems..

HOWEVER, once I started working on other projects (older sessions from a few months ago that I'm mixing) the errors started up again. At first I thought it was perhaps a plugin in the session but when I close out of that and go back to my 'empty session test', the AAE Errors showed up again. Very odd.

I got rid of the Word Clock out to the RME Fireface UC (which I'd been using in place of Dante as that seems to not be working solidly) and just am using that hardwired analog and that fixed the AAE errors again last night.

Same thing again today, worked on another session, AAE Errors again, back to empty session. Getting same errors again.

The system seem to be very unstable. Odd that it would be a plug in since the plug-ins are loaded when you start Pro Tools up whether or not they're instantiated in a session so why would the empty session test play flawlessly one time, then a few hours later, not?

My buffer size is 1024 so not low at all. I disabled Turbo Boost which seemed to help a bit? But doesn't seem to be making anything more stable in terms of these AAE errors showing up seemingly at random. I did find those posts about the MacBook Pro pre-retina issues but I'm on a retina version and adjusting the Disk Cache did nothing in terms of alleviating the errors.

Anyway, I'm now 'sort of' usable and am now afraid to go back to anything Dante (though the problem may not be that)...

Sorry for the stream-of-consciousness writing here. Just wanted to keep you updated.

**Moved my unused plugins OUT of the unused plugins folder to a temporary one of the desktop and that is the latest to have 'fixed' the errors in the empty session test but who knows if it'll return as it has 3 times now since yesterday.

[theAlien]

@nistades, this sounds all very odd. You could have some faulty clocking in your unit, or similar. Preferred=YES means external sync to Dante. Do you use or need Dante? If not, Dante has to be made inactive. If YES (=sync to Dante) helps, then this means in my book: problems with internal sync (whatever the cause is.)

I would do this:
1. Connect your setup to external clock in various ways (WC, ADAT, Dante etc.) and run some tests (e.g., can you setup a Dante network and fully remote control via Dante Controller and your setup follows flawlessly.) If external clocking (which one?) resolves the issues then you have a starting point; get in touch with your seller/Avid.
2. Ask someone (e.g., your seller) to use your MTRX Studio unit in their setup.
3. Get a second test unit and run your tests in your setup. (Or take your MBP with you and use it there connected to their setup.)
4. Compare your settings to someone else's setup. (Do you really have every setting set correctly?)

As long as you cannot initiate a clean working state with internal clocking, you have a problem which has to be solved; even if it means replacement.

And it would be helpful to know if you can work properly in 2021.3 (I read many complaints about 2021.6.)

Edit: I don't believe moving plug-ins from 'Unused folder' has any effect as this folder is exactly made for such a purpose: to ignore. AFAIK, you could rename this folder to what ever you want as it is truly 'ignored' and PT does not watch it.