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  #11  
Old 12-28-2022, 02:20 AM
dcodotto dcodotto is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

I'm in exactly the same boat with my DCommand.
I upgraded from HD10 (2009 cheese-grater) to Ultimate HDX (Mac Mini M1) and it has been wonderful... the performance improvement has been huge and I can still use my DCommand. I was really looking forward to the increased performance of Native Silicon, however, now that the DCommand will officially not run under Silicon, I'll simply stay on the latest PT version that supports Rosetta 2 and lock down the mac mini upgrade-wise at that point. I stayed on PT10 for an additional 10 years, so I should be able to get another 10 years out of my M1, Icon and Rosetta 2.
I absolutely LOVE my DCommand. The latest Avid surfaces seem flimsy in comparison and don't have the "presence" an ICON does as the centrepiece of a recording studio IMO. So I'll be milking every last cent I can out of mine. Makes no sense replacing something that still works so damn well.
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2022, 02:28 AM
clemens clemens is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

Hi Avid

please think again - before deciding to cancel ICON integration in PT Native

We re working over 30 Years on Digidesign/Avid products - spent assets
on your Hard & Software and consoles - and all the other users too.

To cut the communication between ICON ,the most sold Protools controller ,
will maybe help you to sell some more S6 now - but in longer term - will leave behind disapointed professional clients who allready bought an Avid console.

We all pay for our PT licences to get the latest update of AVID software which includes communication with AVID hardware contollers which should be self-evident. And Icon works perfectly . Be proud of your products AND your users and support them !

For you its a little move to integrate ICON interface in PT Native - but it will
help you a lot to hold lots of paying professional subscriptors .

Please rethink about that move before your users will...

Thanks !

Best

Clemens
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2022, 02:56 AM
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pm mastering studio pm mastering studio is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

+1


To AVID: I will start to safe money for you next futured Control surface ( as S4 and S6 will out of date in a few years which make me able to have some savings prepared for that date)

Investing now into these console (S4 or S6) is a waste of money when they are there already for some years and will be replaced by the next gen control surface(s), with even better functions (I hope)

So please AVID, in the mean while support this community of one of you best control surfaces !

PLEASE


Quote:
Originally Posted by clemens View Post
Hi Avid

please think again - before deciding to cancel ICON integration in PT Native

We re working over 30 Years on Digidesign/Avid products - spent assets
on your Hard & Software and consoles - and all the other users too.

To cut the communication between ICON ,the most sold Protools controller ,
will maybe help you to sell some more S6 now - but in longer term - will leave behind disapointed professional clients who allready bought an Avid console.

We all pay for our PT licences to get the latest update of AVID software which includes communication with AVID hardware contollers which should be self-evident. And Icon works perfectly . Be proud of your products AND your users and support them !

For you its a little move to integrate ICON interface in PT Native - but it will
help you a lot to hold lots of paying professional subscriptors .

Please rethink about that move before your users will...

Thanks !

Best

Clemens
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2022, 04:03 AM
LDS LDS is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

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Originally Posted by Led View Post
Id switch to an S1 Dock combo rather than V-control. It's a great effort for what it does, but you can do an awful more with Eucon. If your business is based around Pro Tools and working with other studios like the post industry is, you're not gonna switch to Luna. Equipment evolves and people move on, it's great they've run for this long after becoming non supported hardware. They still do work on Rosetta and on Windows, so it won't be as big a deal for some as it is for others. Every year something comes up that has people saying all these people are going to leave PT as a result, but they never do..

Interestingly, George Massenburg made a comment on Gearspace a few weeks back about how he now uses four DAW applications regularly. He even suggested that users start learning new DAWs as soon as they can, so they don't have to do it under the considerable pressure of delivering a job for a client. Those kinds of comments would have been unheard of 15 years ago. Pro Tools would have been it.

I feel like the catalyst for that change was the dumping of TDM hardware. So many users just never seemed to make the transition from old hardware to new hardware at all. They skip the hardware, and end up investing 1/10th the amount in Pro Tools compared to the previous decade. Perhaps that is just part of the evolution, but I totally expect the same will happen with the end of ICON support.
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  #15  
Old 12-28-2022, 05:32 AM
mtung mtung is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

+1 for keeping icon support.

Please... the S6 is not a better controller when it comes to the real world needs of mixing, hands on eq, dynamics, sends, faders, VCAs, "what I need in front of me all the time." Not to mention the flimsy feeling of the S6. I'm still waiting for any Avid rep to prove me wrong. OK, the S6 has some colors and some fancy display thingies that aren't THAT useful, and it can do some interesting things with grouping faders, but it drops the ball for me completely when it comes to ergonomics and "having what I need in front of me." One of the most brilliant things with the Icons is the EQ and Dynamics panels. The knobs are always in the same place and do what you expect them to do, as long as the plugin developers abide by the layout, which many still do. I've even made a great default for Fabfilters ProQ3 that is laid out perfectly with the icon controllers. Back to the S6, every combination of moving the modules around is just a compromise in ergonomics compared to what is already a great solution with the D-command. And for how many years were the owners suffering the growing pains of the S6?? I am so glad I didn't go that route.

Unfortunately though, I don't think there's many Avid people listening to us. They need to make a return on their investment in developing the S6 and will try to force us to move up. Well, I'll use my 40 fader D-command as long as possible, even switching to a PC if needed and stay at that for the rest of my career; I'm 55 . Having said that, if they one day got smart and should make a new module for the S6 that made mixing have a better work flow, maybe.

For me, the S6 has been a long yawn. I love to be on the cutting edge of new tech and anything related to mixing, but it has to make life better in some way. The S6 as it is now? No thanks.
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  #16  
Old 12-28-2022, 03:24 PM
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Emcha_audio Emcha_audio is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

I know this won't be popular, but Avid did announce the end of support for the icons blue for 2014 and the Black's for 2018. Which means that they were not going to write new drivers for them. They would still work as long as some major changes, example a complete change of os, would happen, and they have been quite upfront about this. This is exactly what has happened on apple side of things, although since nothing has been broken on the windows side, the icon should still be working for them. This would be the same for the command24 as it's end of support date was 2012. The avid c|24 end of support date is 12-31-2022.

I know it really sucks, but this was to be expected at one point.

https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/ar...End-of-Support
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2022, 04:23 PM
LDS LDS is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

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Originally Posted by Emcha_audio View Post
I know this won't be popular, but Avid did announce the end of support for the icons blue for 2014 and the Black's for 2018. Which means that they were not going to write new drivers for them. They would still work as long as some major changes, example a complete change of os, would happen, and they have been quite upfront about this. This is exactly what has happened on apple side of things. This would be the same for the c|24 as it's end of support date was 2012.

I know it really sucks, but this was to be expected at one point.

https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/ar...End-of-Support
One of the reasons these desks have worked totally fine for so long, across PowerPC - intel, and 32-bit - 64-bit transitions, and so many operating system changes is because they have no drivers. It is a proprietary Digidesign protocol that was baked into Pro Tools at the same fundamental level as pan pots, or send faders, or automation lanes. Then it just used standard, driverless IP over ethernet to communicate.

Maybe Avid has recoded Pro Tools from the ground up for Apple Silicon... but I doubt it. Have they fixed the HUI bugs that have been in it for 10 years? That is probably a sure giveaway whether it is a recode... or just a port or update. If it is the latter, then Avid have actually spent inherently far more time and effort turning these desks off in Pro Tools, then if they just left them be.

Exactly the same thing happened with the Pro Control and Control 24, which use exactly the same Digidesign Ethernet Protocol as the ICONs do in 2022... but Avid decided they didn't want people using them past HD10.
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  #18  
Old 12-28-2022, 06:28 PM
BScout BScout is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

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Originally Posted by LDS View Post
It is a proprietary Digidesign protocol that was baked into Pro Tools at the same fundamental level as pan pots, or send faders, or automation lanes. Then it just used standard, driverless IP over ethernet to communicate.
Not quite. There are hooks and every time new features are added, they have to deal with what to do with it (like, say, folders.) This also happens with Eucon but obviously Eucon is a current protocol for Avid and one they want to build on. They've so far let the old protocol carry on without adding anything new for the older surfaces but it must be tedious to have to consider anytime a change is made to the GUI to adapt for a new feature. Even consider track width changing -- that creates a new object identifier which, to all protocols, means that track is a new track -- not a modified version of the old track.

(And the digidesign protocol still has to be worked out every time Apple changes how it does a network stack. Apple has a real knack of breaking standards in macOS versions -- so it isn't something that can be left without maintenance.)

My guess is they will completely remove it from all versions (Intel Mac, Apple Silicon Mac, and Windows) by the end of 2023.

I'm sure Avid knows the number of ICONs in use still (at least in post houses and probably HoW which were the big buyers.) I doubt the numbers of the Command 24 are meaningful in any way (it didn't sell anything like the ICONs in the first place.) On top of all that, the lack of service contracts on those older surfaces must make them a boat anchor too for the company. (yeah, I hate service contracts but the S4 and S6 have them which makes them continue to generate profit for Avid.)
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  #19  
Old 12-28-2022, 08:15 PM
Guy McDude Guy McDude is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

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Originally Posted by LDS View Post
Technically your C24 is still as legal as it ever has been (works under Windows, works under MacOS on Intel machines, works under Rosetta 2 on Apple Silicon machines). It won't be supported in native Apple Silicon builds though... which *might* mean it is headed for the door on other platforms sooner rather than later.

Neyrinck provides HUI-level functionality. I find it a handy tool for controlling Reaper or Nuendo from my D-Command, but personally I would be sticking with Intel or Rosetta 2 to run Pro Tools for as long as I could. HUI integration isn't anywhere near as deep as EuCON or Digidesign Ethernet.
yes, that's what Im saying.
it is working under rosetta 2 currently, but Avid has stated it WONT work with silicon PT.

but the Neyrinck folks told me today that they are working on a C24 version of their V Control that will make the c24 [ somewhat] useable with silicon PT.
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  #20  
Old 12-29-2022, 04:58 AM
LDS LDS is offline
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Default Re: Future of our beloved Command/Icon console in the Apple silicon age

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Originally Posted by BScout View Post
Not quite. There are hooks and every time new features are added, they have to deal with what to do with it (like, say, folders.) This also happens with Eucon but obviously Eucon is a current protocol for Avid and one they want to build on. They've so far let the old protocol carry on without adding anything new for the older surfaces but it must be tedious to have to consider anytime a change is made to the GUI to adapt for a new feature. Even consider track width changing -- that creates a new object identifier which, to all protocols, means that track is a new track -- not a modified version of the old track.

(And the digidesign protocol still has to be worked out every time Apple changes how it does a network stack. Apple has a real knack of breaking standards in macOS versions -- so it isn't something that can be left without maintenance.)

My guess is they will completely remove it from all versions (Intel Mac, Apple Silicon Mac, and Windows) by the end of 2023.

I'm sure Avid knows the number of ICONs in use still (at least in post houses and probably HoW which were the big buyers.) I doubt the numbers of the Command 24 are meaningful in any way (it didn't sell anything like the ICONs in the first place.) On top of all that, the lack of service contracts on those older surfaces must make them a boat anchor too for the company. (yeah, I hate service contracts but the S4 and S6 have them which makes them continue to generate profit for Avid.)

Digidesign didn’t brute force the code for Digidesign Ethernet into Pro Tools… because that would be amateur hour stuff that first year undergraduates do out of pure naivety. This stuff exists as separate functions in Pro Tools that address mutual variables. EuCon works in exactly the same way. It has always been compartmentalised in code… but that doesn’t suddenly mean it “needs a driver”.

Icon desks never offered supported folders, because Avid never added a Digidesign Ethernet function for it. The same applies with object and Atmos panning. EuCon changes regularly not because Avid are “working around things”. They are adding compartmentalised functions…
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