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  #151  
Old 11-04-2024, 01:22 PM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Hi Marianna,
Really appreciate your proactive engagement on this issue. Haven't heard from skylar_battles in a while. Wonder if they are still experiencing this issue? I am on the verge of installing 2024.10, but I'm nervous (as usual) about upgrading anything. It sounds like 2024.10 will work fine with my M1 Studio Ultra / HDX+UAD Sonnett TB rig, but I'm waiting for confirmation from the HDX forum. But maybe I'll just go ahead and install and see what results I get with MIDI ADC. As long there are no "gotchas" that would prevent me from going back to 2024.3.1 if the new version doesn't work out??
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  #152  
Old 11-04-2024, 01:25 PM
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marianna marianna is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Quote:
Originally Posted by innerbooty View Post
Hi Marianna,
Really appreciate your proactive engagement on this issue. Haven't heard from skylar_battles in a while. Wonder if they are still experiencing this issue? I am on the verge of installing 2024.10, but I'm nervous (as usual) about upgrading anything. It sounds like 2024.10 will work fine with my M1 Studio Ultra / HDX+UAD Sonnett TB rig, but I'm waiting for confirmation from the HDX forum. But maybe I'll just go ahead and install and see what results I get with MIDI ADC. As long there are no "gotchas" that would prevent me from going back to 2024.3.1 if the new version doesn't work out??
I hear you innerbooty.....

I would wait until Elpiniki is back this week and responds to me and Tope. then you only have to update once.....

Let me see if Tope knows the HDX intel and can help....

Marianna
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  #153  
Old 11-04-2024, 01:52 PM
innerbooty innerbooty is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

I appreciate the words of caution. I'll wait for a collective thumbs up!
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  #154  
Old 11-04-2024, 11:31 PM
skylar_battles skylar_battles is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Hey everyone! I just wanted to check back in here!

Just to be exceedingly clear, there are primarily 2 issues being discussed in this thread that come across similarly to the user as they both result in Virtual Instrument recordings sounding too EARLY on playback as compared to recording! One of the issues affects all Pro Tools users and the other issue only affects specific users.

I am checking yet again, and the issue that strawb and cleekpav are experiencing does NOT occur on my system. I have a simple 48kHz session open with 1 Instrument track, 1 Click track, and 1 Audio track with 5 AutoTune Pros on it amounting to 13350 samples of plugin delay. I would certainly hear with this setup up if I was experiencing the same issue when trying to record on the Instrument track! I am glad cleekpav could at least confirm that they experiencing the same thing as strawb without using HDX as far as finding the root of that issue.

The issue that I believe has ALWAYS been a part of Pro Tools and that occurs on all Pro Tools systems, is that Pro Tools does NOT factor in the latency heard during recording incurred from the H/W Buffer Size for MIDI Notes and Controllers’ Delay Compensation. So even on my or any system without experiencing the issue strawb and cleekpav are trying to work though, if I record MIDI in a session with no Delay Compensation induced from any other track at all, the result will still always SOUND too EARLY by the amount of latency incurred by the H/W Buffer Size. There is no workaround until this is addressed.

From doing more extensive research and testing in both Ableton Live and Logic Pro, I have determined with certainty that for certain use cases MIDI must be recorded as received by the system and for other use cases MIDI must be recorded as heard by the user on the system. With Virtual Instruments, the latter is the only viable option and Pro Tools currently will NOT do this which makes it practically impossible to record using Virtual Instruments at all since sometimes using a buffer size of 128 or 256 is needed for Pro Tools to run without an error. The higher Buffer Size you use, the earlier your performance will sound upon playback!

As far as implementation goes, since there is the need for 2 different behaviors for MIDI Notes and Controllers placement, I think the user must be able to select which is used on a per track basis for both Instrument and MIDI tracks to facilitate all MIDI recording use cases. If the behavior is changed to ALWAYS print latency from the H/W Buffer Size, some workflows would suffer as reported by Logic Pro users. Pro Tools needs the ability to access both of these behaviors like Ableton Live 12!

Unfortunately Pro Tools 2024.10 does NOT address the issue ALL Pro Tools users face when trying to record with Virtual Instruments, but is worth the update due to MIDI improvements in other areas if you are NOT affected by the issue that strawb and cleekpav are experiencing.
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  #155  
Old 11-05-2024, 08:07 AM
strawb strawb is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Quote:
Originally Posted by marianna View Post
Furthest from the truth strawb.... of course we want to fix/release but there has to be a reason why we didn't with this particular issue.

Yes you reported it 8 months ago but it wasnt until cases got created that traction on it was made. Posting on the duc doesnt ensure support see's it and acts, creating a case or cases folks does. Tope and I had just begun to pop in here so we escalated it along with a few other folks reporting it like sklar_battles, innerbooty, and more.....

The product design and development peep isnt in today and will be back mid week and it will be the first thing I ask and report on once I know.

stand by..... we ( tope and I ) will get you answers.

Marianna
thanks i appreciate you looking into it.
all i can say is that each time i've contacted support about this case i've gotten the same answer: some version of "they are working on it" for 8 months. 2 major PT updates have been released since then yet still "we're working on it". it's disheartening and exhausting to keep asking for help when it goes unanswered/unfixed.
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  #156  
Old 11-13-2024, 06:59 PM
Markrosoft Markrosoft is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

I just want to say @skylar_battles is 1000% right and I really hope Avid realizes there are two separate issues going on.

ISSUE ONE (Skyler's Issue): Midi playback ALWAYS sounds different than the recording. Let's say someone is watching you record a midi performance and they hear you play perfectly on the beat. You stop recording and then playback your performance: the performance will sound different than what they just heard -- now the performance will be ahead of the beat! The amount is dictated by buffer size but even at a low buffer size it's still present. This affects ALL users and has always existed.

ISSUE TWO (Strawb, Tope, et. al.'s Issue): This is a realtively NEW issue where some users, with some versions of Pro Tools experience high latency plugins throwing off the timing of their instrument tracks. This issue does not affect all users -- I haven't been able to replicate it -- but from the YouTube videos I've watched it seems like a total show-stopper for users who are having this issue.

As Skylar has pointed out these issue might seem related but they really aren't. Issue One has always existed. It happens for all users and all versions of Pro Tools. As I said, I could see Issue two being a priority because it's a showstopper and it's new. So I expect that will be prioritized but Issue One definitely deserves attention too! I just want to piggyback on Skylar's posts and beg Marianna to make sure the Avid team understands the first issue and fixes it. It's been going on for decades and as far as I can tell, it affects ALL users. Here's a post from a few years ago where I do the exact same test Skyler does. I've also spoken to many avid techs about the issue over the years and the responses have ranged from not understanding it to giving me a free year of Ultimate and saying it's been noted but there's no timeline for a fix.
Skylar is also right that the issue is NOT present in Ableton. I've done the test there and sure enough playback is perfectly in sync with the audio print of the midi recording performance. For years I preferred recording midi in Ableton because it "just felt right," but PT was/is my main DAW. Since learning my gut-feeling that midi records better in Ableton is actually an observable truth, I've started recording all my midi and then pull it into Pro Tools. It's tedious and a ridiculously slow workaround. I've spoken to many support people at Avid about it but would love an acknowledgment of the issue and some communication whether this is an issue you might some day address? I am on the latest version of PT and turning Midi Delay Compensation on and off has no effect on this. (I'm unsure what Midi Delay Compensation does actually).

A key point is that Issue One is subtle. I think it's something that many many users have felt but unless they do the printing audio test like me, Skyler and a few others on YouTube they probably just think their performance was off. Nope, in fact, Pro Tools is altering every single performance! That really does make Pro Tools a horrible platform to record midi. Think about it: You record and your performance is a little bit BEHIND the beat. Cool! Then you listen back and hit play and BOOM, your performance is a bit AHEAD of the beat! That's insane!

As Skylar says, there needs to be an option to correct for us. 99% of users performing with a controller are going to want it the way it is in Ableton: Midi playback should sound EXACTLY the same as it does while you're recording. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this issue. I promise you even if it's not an issue that's reported all the time, every single user is experiencing it. If it's fixed, recording midi in PT will suddenly just "feel right."

Thank you!

Last edited by Markrosoft; 11-14-2024 at 02:22 PM.
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  #157  
Old 11-14-2024, 09:05 AM
cleekpav cleekpav is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Markrosoft,


Just a note about the MIDI delay recording with just about any plugin on any track, I don't have HDX and am experiencing the same problem.
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  #158  
Old 11-14-2024, 02:28 PM
Markrosoft Markrosoft is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Hey cleekpav, thanks for the clarification. I updated my post to reflect that info.

My TLDR: the issue you're experiencing seems way worse! So I expect Avid will fix it. Eventually.

But my fear is that the other issue (that midi playback NEVER has the same timing as the midi recording) -- an issue that EVERY Pro Tools user experiences but might not realize -- will continue to be ignored for another decade.

Marianna seems like an awesome person to have on our side (thank you Marianna!). I just hope you understand this fundamental issue in addition to the very serious bug that Cleekpav and others are experiencing. Please feel free to DM if you need any more clarification of the issue.
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  #159  
Old 11-22-2024, 01:44 PM
gills gills is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Just want to further clarify what's happening.

Hitting a note when recording MIDI will trigger two events:
  1. The note is printed to the timeline at the exact moment you hit it.
  2. The note is actually triggered out loud after the latency time introduced by the H/W buffer size and the session's plugins. This is only during record, not playback.
The notes print and play back ahead of the beat because we intuitively play ahead of the beat, so that our notes trigger on the beat when recording.

But when playing back, those notes no longer trigger where they did when you were recording. Instead, they trigger where they were printed (ahead of the beat).

To test this, you can mute the instrument track you're recording to, turn on the metronome, and record a note on each click for a bit (without hearing the instrument, only the metronome). You'll find the notes will print on beat.

I experience this problem and agree that it's crazy to me that it is still ongoing.

Last edited by gills; 02-10-2025 at 12:56 PM.
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  #160  
Old 11-24-2024, 09:44 PM
skylar_battles skylar_battles is offline
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Default Re: PT 2024.3 NEW issue MIDI LATENCY

Thank you to Markrosof and gills for your comments!

To gills’ most recent response: this is an 100% accurate assessment of the “issue” that occurs on ALL Pro Tools systems.

Even though the current MIDI recording behavior is not usable with Virtual Instruments, it is needed for certain use cases. If you look at the following linked threads, you will see Logic Pro users asking for the behavior that we have in Pro Tools to be implemented in Logic, which may seem surprising given that for most use cases it is undesired and causes everyone here issues.

This is evidence that for different MIDI recording use cases, different behaviors are needed. Again, the only solution is to allow Pro Tools to have access to both of these MIDI recording behaviors on a per-track basis. And yes, recording with Virtual Instruments comes across as “broken” with this being Pro Tools’ (only) MIDI recording implementation.

So really, it’s that Pro Tools’ MIDI Recording implementation has never "worked" for Virtual Instruments at all! Playback ALWAYS sounds earlier than recording.

Implementing a solution for this longstanding issue should be the #1 priority as far as improving MIDI in Pro Tools!

Logic Pro

midi latency at recording, not the average problem

Audio and MIDI not recording in sync

External Midi Instrument delay

Audio buffer size affects MIDI input/record timing ?!?

MIDI Latency
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Last edited by skylar_battles; 11-25-2024 at 12:57 AM.
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