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  #21  
Old 01-31-2022, 08:02 AM
oortone oortone is offline
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Default Re: Multi mono - Singal generator out of phase

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Originally Posted by MrDibS View Post
Omg.

THEY ARE NOT PHASE LOCKED BECAUSE THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE INSTANCES. (Read this six or seven times to really drink it in).


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Maybe you missed Rich Breens comment:
Quote:
Processing will be in phase between channels in a multi-mono instantiation of most garden-variety plugs
So while this most probably is true the problem here is how to know, since it's not always the case. You obviously don't have a clue so please stop commenting.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2022, 08:06 AM
MrDibS MrDibS is offline
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Default Re: Multi mono - Singal generator out of phase

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Originally Posted by oortone View Post
Maybe you missed Rich Breens comment:


So while this most probably is true the problem here is how to know, since it's not always the case. You obviously don't have a clue so please stop commenting.

Maybe you missed the next few words from Rich Breen’s post. Read them ten or twelve times and then bitch some more about why your delay (a time based plugin) isn’t exactly in phase.

I will stop commenting now because your ignorance is clearly willful.


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  #23  
Old 01-31-2022, 08:48 AM
Rich Breen Rich Breen is offline
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Default Re: Multi mono - Singal generator out of phase

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Originally Posted by oortone View Post
It's not just generators. I tried the same thing with a delay (Waves Super Tap 2 Taps) and I can provoke that one to get out of phase too when using Multi Mono - although they have exactly the same delay time L/R....[/I]

So this confirmed exactly what I was worried about. Phase coherency is not guaranteed in Multi Mono plugins.
I think I specifically mentioned delays as likely having randomized processes, so this is to be expected.


Quote:
....I just found this in ProTools Reference Guide 2021.10. Anyone who knows about Ambisonics and the fact that the text address Multi Mono specifically might agreeI have a point:

page 1309
Probably because the user may not understand how multi-mono works and will either insert plugs that are non-deterministic, or that the user may un-link the instantiations and upset the delicate phase requirements of an ambisonics path - it's perfectly safe to insert garden-variety eq/gain plugs, but if you're inserting multi-mono instantiations of delays, reverbs, analog-modeled plugs, unlinked dynamics, etc, well then...you should expect problems.

Your seem to want to imply there's something fundamentally wrong with the multi-mono architecture - there is not, you just need to understand what you're doing and what the limitations/topology of the specific plugs you're using are. Multi-mono is a perfectly acceptable and useful solution for many use-cases.

I think this horse has been beaten enough. ;-)
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  #24  
Old 02-03-2022, 07:55 AM
oortone oortone is offline
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Default Re: Multi mono - Singal generator out of phase

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Originally Posted by Rich Breen View Post
I think I specifically mentioned delays as likely having randomized processes, so this is to be expected.




Probably because the user may not understand how multi-mono works and will either insert plugs that are non-deterministic, or that the user may un-link the instantiations and upset the delicate phase requirements of an ambisonics path - it's perfectly safe to insert garden-variety eq/gain plugs, but if you're inserting multi-mono instantiations of delays, reverbs, analog-modeled plugs, unlinked dynamics, etc, well then...you should expect problems.

Your seem to want to imply there's something fundamentally wrong with the multi-mono architecture - there is not, you just need to understand what you're doing and what the limitations/topology of the specific plugs you're using are. Multi-mono is a perfectly acceptable and useful solution for many use-cases.

I think this horse has been beaten enough. ;-)
No there's nothing fundamentally wrong; Multi Mono is a great feature not present in all DAW:s, but of course having the full grasp of potential phase issues needs attention.

Regarding the ambisonics alert: Since what you say about delays, reverbs and other plugin types – that introduce a lot of phase "errors" – is true also for Multichannel plugins the note in the Reference guide still indicates that there might be additional phase coherence issues in Multi mono.

BTW: I don't think that there should be any randomized processes in the delay I was referring to, it's not that kind of a delay and if so I would get that on a Multichannel instance too.

If I may present my very own theory (since all conclusions so far are only theories without references) I believe it might be something like round robin/circualr buffers that get's out of phase; that fits both oscillators and delays with feedback like the one I tried, but would not affect more straight forward buffer handling like Trim.

When dealing with material where the phase coherences varies, like the stereo field recordings I recently worked with, it's absolutely impossible to know if a phase error comes from the recording or from a plugin without spending a lot of time comparing, that's the reason I wanted to get real deeper knowledge. The main problem is that me as a user can't know for what a "garden variety" plugin is. Luckily most plugins come in stereo.

Last edited by oortone; 02-03-2022 at 08:07 AM.
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