Reverb / 5.1 mix

[danyg]

Coming from the music industry I need some advice in 5.1
In stereo we are used to have a phantom center and no real center speaker.

My idea... is it useful to use reverb-busses/returns in quad (instead of 5.1) because I don't want to have the same signal in the center speaker and L/R due to phase cancellation.

Also for simple dialogue. Isn't logical to send a "stereo room reverb" only tp L/R and not to the center speaker?

Should the center speaker stay "dry"?

[Farhoof]

Originally Posted by danyg

Coming from the music industry I need some advice in 5.1
In stereo we are used to have a phantom center and no real center speaker.

My idea... is it useful to use reverb-busses/returns in quad (instead of 5.1) because I don't want to have the same signal in the center speaker and L/R due to phase cancellation.

Also for simple dialogue. Isn't logical to send a "stereo room reverb" only tp L/R and not to the center speaker?

Should the center speaker stay "dry"?

It depends on the intended use of the reverb.
If it's used to add flavor to a scene and is pretty much present the entire scene, the reverb can be as wide as you want.
If it's used to add a little reverb to a radio mic to better match the boom in the previous shot you will hear the dialog jumping from center to LCR so it's better to leave it in the center.

For me 'technical reverbs' are usually mono and 'flavor reverbs' are usually wide, but are often panned a little bit to the center anyway to better 'stick' to the screen. If it sounds good it's good.

[danyg]

thank you

so if a dry dialogue (from a close LAV) will need some ambiance for technical matching/reason you put the reverb to the center in mono and not at all LR ?

[Farhoof]

Originally Posted by danyg

thank you

so if a dry dialogue (from a close LAV) will need some ambiance for technical matching/reason you put the reverb to the center in mono and not at all LR ?

Correct.

I actually use a multi mono reverb on a 5.1 aux, this will act as 6 individual mono reverbs (settings are linked by default). If the input dialog is in the center it outputs to the center. If the input is to the left it will output to the left. That way I don't have to fiddle with the panning at all and it even tracks motions across all channels when needed. This reverb is specific only to these technical uses. For creative uses I have different reverbs either stereo and panned or 'real' 5.1.

[Cheesehead]

Good stuff from Farhoof!
Also be aware that a phantom centre still happens in smaller mixing rooms but can appear as a hole in the soundstage in large theatres.
So it's always advisable to fill the centre as much as is needed especially in FX reverbs. Location boom dialogue tends to have its own natural reverb anyhow so works pretty well without any extra.

[Michael Carnes]

Originally Posted by danyg

Coming from the music industry I need some advice in 5.1
In stereo we are used to have a phantom center and no real center speaker.

My idea... is it useful to use reverb-busses/returns in quad (instead of 5.1) because I don't want to have the same signal in the center speaker and L/R due to phase cancellation.

Also for simple dialogue. Isn't logical to send a "stereo room reverb" only tp L/R and not to the center speaker?

Should the center speaker stay "dry"?

It really depends on the 'verb. If you're trying to make a surround reverb out of multiple stereo reverbs, then it might be best to have a quad reverb stem to avoid just the problem you're worried about. But if you have a purpose-built surround/immersive reverb, the center channel should be decorrelated relative to the other channels. This means that--in surround--any reverb in the center will be unique. It gets more interesting if you're folding a surround mix down to stereo. In that case, the center signal will go to left and right. But there will still be unique L/R signals in those channels too, so you may not lose as much spaciousness as you fear. And a well-made reverb will not cause coloration in fold-down due to interference.

But you still have to be a little careful about reverb in the center. Center reverb will give you a sense of depth, but it will not give you a sense of spaciousness. That's because a center reverb channel reaches both ears in equal proportion. To get spaciousness, any dry signal in the center needs to go to a reverb that sends output to all the other channels. I'm not a fan of multi-mono reverbs--they just don't sound realistic. But perhaps that's what you want.

In my own practice, I like a certain amount of reverb in the center, but I tend to lower the level by a few dB. The exception might be the case in which the dry signal is strongly non-center (or sides or rear). In that case I do want some center reverb because it's more effective when I turn my head.

There really aren't any hard and firm rules here. So much depends on what you're mixing, what you musical intentions are, and your sense of how a person listens--headphones/speakers, etc. As always it's really important to monitor in surround, stereo, mono, earbuds, speakers. That part isn't really any different than it's ever been--just a few more options.

[danyg]

great stuff, thank you guys !!!!! great inspiration

[rantanplan]

Originally Posted by Farhoof

Correct.
I actually use a multi mono reverb on a 5.1 aux, this will act as 6 individual mono reverbs (settings are linked by default). If the input dialog is in the center it outputs to the center. If the input is to the left it will output to the left. That way I don't have to fiddle with the panning at all and it even tracks motions across all channels when needed. This reverb is specific only to these technical uses. For creative uses I have different reverbs either stereo and panned or 'real' 5.1.

Interesting approach. How does this linking work? I'm still on PT 10 so maybe this is a "new" feature...

I use a mono PhoenixVerb on each individual Lav and ADR channel, which by default only adds a bit of early reflections. This helps a lot to "glue" dialogues without having to care for panning... Thanks to modern CPUs and lightweighted algorithm this is no issue anymore.

[rantanplan]

Originally Posted by rantanplan

Interesting approach. How does this linking work? I'm still on PT 10 so maybe this is a "new" feature...

Of course I can do this, also in PT 10! Group tracks and chose "control"...

[LDS]

Originally Posted by rantanplan

Of course I can do this, also in PT 10! Group tracks and chose "control"...

Or just create a 5.1 aux and choose your reverb plugin from the 'multi-mono' plugin menu, rather than the 'multichannel' menu.