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-   -   Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD (https://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=184062)

Naagzh 12-14-2006 09:19 AM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
Quote:

I think what I'll try is direct mic on the kick into port one and a submix for the rest of the drums.

From there I will see what I can do... lol

If all else fails I'll try to program the midi as close as I can to the real track. I've got BFD lite and a full version of reason. Which do you guys recommend for the best sounding *hardcore drums*

Also, any additional tips for the midi programming?

Just so you realize, the "rest of the drums" will be mono, just like the kick, and there will be no good way to get it stereo afterward. IMHO, the approach you mention is the least effective of your options. You would be better off using two carefully-placed room mics panned left and right and nothing else, and then beefing up your sound with kick and snare samples. Put on some well-engineered hardcore records (Mastodon, for example) with closed-ear headphones on, and listen to how the toms a panned from left to right, or how a china or crash is off to the side. Hi-hats are usually not center, but slightly off to one side.

You're probably thinking to yourself "I really need a good kick sound, so I'm going to mic it and record it directly to ensure the quality of the bass drum when it comes time to mix." But you haven't considered what will happen in the context of the entire mix.

The dead-end into which you'll eventually run is that too many elements of your mix are panned dead center. The kick, snare, lead vocals, hi-hat, ride, toms, crashes, and bass guitar will all be forced to live in the same place, and your mix will quickly seem "crowded" and you'll wonder why you can't hear the individual instruments as much as you want to. By recording the drums in stereo, you'll create some sonic "real estate" for other center-panned instruments to inhabit, because the toms and cymbals will be more to the sides, and the whole mix will sound wider, bigger, and the other elements (vocals, bass, guitar leads, etc.) wll sound fuller and more present.

Take a stereo approach to recording the stereo instrument that is the drumset.

Naagzh 12-15-2006 07:51 AM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
As for the samples, recording MIDI from a keyboard isn't a necessity; only a suggestion.

Read up on using Beat Detective.

I'm not sure how the samples in BFD Lite and Reason stack up, but I'd bet BFD is better suited to the task because it's designed to emulate real drums. Best way to find out is to listen to the samples yourself.

If the samples don't cut it, you can try creating your own samples, which is excessive, I know, but some of the real pros are doing it this way, just to have samples that blend well with the drums.

510man 12-29-2006 08:01 PM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
I'm a drummer using PT on an M-box. There are several good suggestions above.

I would add using two overheads and then putting a trigger on your kick and snare to record the MIDI data. You can then use a sample to "blend" the samples with the acoustic kick and snare you recorded. This method works well.

The suggestion to playback through a PA works great if the you have a smokin' PA with some big subs. It takes some big speakers to make a kick drum sound right. If you have the eighteens it works well. This is one trick used to make Tommy Lee sound so big on the Motley CDs.

Also, I would suggest recording your room channels one at a time. Play your left track through the PA and record it and then play your right track through the same speakers with the same mic in the same place and you'll greatly reduce any phasing or tuning problems. Move the mic around to find the sweet spot. A cheap condensor like the Octava MK-012 works well if you don't have nice mics and are on a budget. If you go for Octava's watch out for the counterfeit versions. Info is on the Octava website.

Hope it helps.

Naagzh 12-30-2006 11:24 AM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
Quote:

I'm a drummer using PT on an M-box. There are several good suggestions above.

I would add using two overheads and then putting a trigger on your kick and snare to record the MIDI data. You can then use a sample to "blend" the samples with the acoustic kick and snare you recorded. This method works well.

The suggestion to playback through a PA works great if the you have a smokin' PA with some big subs. It takes some big speakers to make a kick drum sound right. If you have the eighteens it works well. This is one trick used to make Tommy Lee sound so big on the Motley CDs.

Also, I would suggest recording your room channels one at a time. Play your left track through the PA and record it and then play your right track through the same speakers with the same mic in the same place and you'll greatly reduce any phasing or tuning problems. Move the mic around to find the sweet spot. A cheap condensor like the Octava MK-012 works well if you don't have nice mics and are on a budget. If you go for Octava's watch out for the counterfeit versions. Info is on the Octava website.

Hope it helps.

That's a great idea for the MIDI! I'll keep that one on file!

I didn't know that Tommy Lee's drums were treated that way, either. I did hear once that Phil Rudd's drums had this technique applied to them, though I don't know which record(s).

As for the one-at-a-time room mic thing, how would this be different than panning the right channel right and the left channel left (coming out of the PA), and recording with an XY pair of condensers, to be panned right and left? Specifically, how would phasing be reduced (assuming what's coming from the PA is in phase, of course)?

Going one-at-a-time as you suggest, you'll end up with two very similar tracks (as far as room ambience is concerned). With an XY approach, you'll create slight differences in the two tracks, which to you I think means "phasing". To me, though, these slight differences translate into stereo spread and realism. What do you think?

510man 12-31-2006 01:46 PM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
Hmmm.............thinking through it, the way you suggest may work better in terms of giving you the true stereo image the room mics would record if you were able to multitrack on many channels running room mics on an acoustic kit. I'll have to try it.

I do them one at a time to maintain the stereo image created by the overheads. There's no stereo image cross bleed into the room mic played back one at a time. And since the mic is equal distance from the PA speaker when both sides are recorded I believe phasing is consistent. Maybe not an issue. However, now that I think about it, I'm creating an unnatural recording since two open room mics would naturally have some bleed which is why I think your appraoch may be better. I'm a novice on the recording end. Basically a drummer that does some recording vs. an engineer who plays drums!!!

Try it both ways and compare. Would be interesting to hear what you think. I plan to do it later so I'll report back as well.

alexbutterfield 01-07-2007 01:20 PM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
Well, I was planning on starting a thread just like this one so I'm glad I found this first. Lots of helpful info.

I have an Mbox 2 (into iMac G5).

Does anyone have suggestions on affordable mixers to use if I'm going the route of more than 2 mics? (Affordable but not garbage. And by affordable, I guess I mean $150-$250 range. If there is nothing worthwhile in that range, I'm probably out of luck at this point.)

The two mics I have so far are a Shure SM 57 & an MXL 990. At present, I use the Mbox 2 as a preamp and for phantom power. If I get a mixer, will I then need mic preamps AND a phantom power box for the mics to go into before the mixer? And, if so, recommendations there?

I'm a newbie so all help is appreciated.

Thanks.

Naagzh 01-10-2007 10:15 AM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
Quote:

Well, I was planning on starting a thread just like this one so I'm glad I found this first. Lots of helpful info.

I have an Mbox 2 (into iMac G5).

Does anyone have suggestions on affordable mixers to use if I'm going the route of more than 2 mics? (Affordable but not garbage. And by affordable, I guess I mean $150-$250 range. If there is nothing worthwhile in that range, I'm probably out of luck at this point.)

The two mics I have so far are a Shure SM 57 & an MXL 990. At present, I use the Mbox 2 as a preamp and for phantom power. If I get a mixer, will I then need mic preamps AND a phantom power box for the mics to go into before the mixer? And, if so, recommendations there?

I'm a newbie so all help is appreciated.

Thanks.

Something like this is about all you're going to get for $200. It has 4 mic preamps built into it, and 2 line inputs, making it a 6-channel mixer.

There's some terminology to learn here. First, a mic puts out a very weak electrical signal (mic level), which must be amplified by the microphone preamplifier. The mic preamp raises the signal's strength to "line-level" which corresponds to the line inputs on a mixer, recorder, etc.

Most mic pres have phantom power available. Most mixers provide phantom power for some, if not all, of the built-in mic preamps.

I'm not sure buying a mixer is the right thing to do. It makes more sense to me to save and buy an 8-input interface (Mbox 2 Pro, 002R) and an Octopre. Or, buy a hard disk recorder with 8 inputs and transfer the files digitally once recorded. Yes, it's more money, but you can multitrack.

GTBannah 01-11-2007 05:54 PM

Re: Drums - SUB MIX or TWO MIC METHOD
 
Quote:

I think what I'll try is direct mic on the kick into port one and a submix for the rest of the drums.

From there I will see what I can do... lol

If all else fails I'll try to program the midi as close as I can to the real track. I've got BFD lite and a full version of reason. Which do you guys recommend for the best sounding *hardcore drums*

Also, any additional tips for the midi programming?

I don't know if these are still around but, I've seen a type of "transformer" which converts an XLR male into a 1/4 inch male. If you can get two of those you would be able to take two SM57s or 58s, convert them to 1/4 inch (they don't need fantom power) and along with your two fantom powered XLR Mics, have four channels to record the drums. Kik, snare and two overheads ....

I hope this helps ....


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