Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

This has been an ongoing issue since PT 9 and on different computers (Windows 7 and 10) for a few years now. Just revisiting to get any insight.
ISSUE: After running for a period of time (from 1 - 3 days), the output from my 002 rack develops a crunchy type of distortion on analog signals (not MIDI tracks). The workaround is easy in that I change my buffer size to a different value, save, change back to the original size, save, and the distortion is gone.
I have the latest drivers for 002/003 and all system optimizations applied. I can only assume that it is associated with the 002. Anyone experience this or know a better solution? (aside from buying a better interface, which I know is the most recommended solution...) Thanks much. Kent

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Its more likely that its a computer issue(changing the buffer does not affect the hardware), but you give zero details on that. Look near the top of this page for a link named Help Us Help You and have a good read. Then come back with a Sandra report so the experts here can see all the details on the computer:o

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Hello and thanks for response. My initial thought was perhaps not the computer since this has been a recurring issue on two different computer builds of the past few years. However, I should not make that assumption!
Here is the Sandra Report. Incidentally, PT runs Great on this computer - very fast with low (less than 8% Max) CPU usage.

ID
Host Name : DESKTOP-E38N6KR
Workgroup : WORKGROUP

Computer
Model : MicroElectronics G900 PowerSpec
Serial Number : G900052*******
Chassis : Default string Desktop
Mainboard : ASUS TUF GAMING X570-PLUS (WI-FI)
Serial Number : 2101797********
BIOS : AMI (OEM) 3402 01/13/2021
TPM - Trusted Platform Module : AMD 2.0 2018 (24PCR 64Ses 2Obj)
Total Memory : 32GB DDR4

Processors
Processor : AMD Ryzen 9 5900X 12-Core Processor (2M 12C 24T 4.62GHz, 1.6GHz IMC, 12x 512kB L2, 2x 32MB L3)
Socket/Slot : AM4 (PGA1331)

Chipset
Memory Controller : AMD F19 (Ryzen3/TR3 Matisse) Host Bridge 16x 100MHz (1.6GHz), 2x 8GB DDR4 3.2GHz 128-bit

Memory Module(s)
Memory Module : (Bad)/Hynix (Hyundai) NMUD416E86-3200D 16GB DDR4 2Rx8 PC4-25600U DDR4-3200 (17-17-17-38 4-58-19-6)
Memory Module : (Bad)/Hynix (Hyundai) NMUD416E86-3200D 16GB DDR4 2Rx8 PC4-25600U DDR4-3200 (17-17-17-38 4-58-19-6)

Video System
Monitor/Panel : HPN HP 27w
(1920x1080, 27.2")
Monitor/Panel : Hewlett Packard HP 27es
(1920x1080, 27.2")
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 (192S 1C SM5.5 953MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 1.8GHz 64-bit, PCIe 2.0 x8)
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 (192S 1C SM5.5 953MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 1.8GHz 64-bit, PCIe 2.0 x8)

Graphics Processor
CUDA : NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 (192S 1C SM3.5 953MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 1.8GHz 64-bit)
OpenCL : NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 (192S 1C SM1.2 953MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 1.8GHz 64-bit)
D3D 11 : NVIDIA GeForce GT 710 (192S 1C SM11.5 953MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 1.8GHz 64-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA Corporation GeForce GT 710/PCIe/SSE2 (2GB)
OpenGL : NVIDIA Corporation GeForce GT 710/PCIe/SSE2 (2GB)

Storage Devices
Disk : Samsung SSD 870 EVO 2TB (2TB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Disk : Samsung SSD 870 EVO 2TB (2TB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Disk : WDC WDS200T2B0C-00PXH0 (2TB, PCIe3x4/NVMe)
Disk : Seagate ST5000DM000-1FK178 (5TB, USB3/SATA300/600, 3.5", 5980rpm, 16MB Cache)

Logical Storage Devices
Song Recordings (D:) : 2TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 870 EVO 2TB (2TB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
VI Files (E:) : 2TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 870 EVO 2TB (2TB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Windows (C:) : 2TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ WDC WDS200T2B0C-00PXH0 (2TB, PCIe3x4/NVMe)
Windows RE tools : 400MB (NTFS, 4kB) @ WDC WDS200T2B0C-00PXH0 (2TB, PCIe3x4/NVMe)
Seagate Expansion Drive (F:) : 5TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Seagate ST5000DM000-1FK178 (5TB, USB3/SATA300/600, 3.5", 5980rpm, 16MB Cache)
SYSTEM : 252MB (FAT32, 2kB) @ WDC WDS200T2B0C-00PXH0 (2TB, PCIe3x4/NVMe)

Peripherals
LPC Hub Controller : ASUS FCH LPC Bridge
Audio Device : MSI GK208 HDMI/DP Audio Controller
Audio Codec : nVidia nForce4 ISA Bridge
Audio Device : ASUS F17/19 (Ryzen2/3, TR/2) HD Audio Controller
Audio Codec : Realtek Semi 0B00
Disk Controller : Sandisk Standard NVM Express Controller
Disk Controller : AMD FCH SATA Controller [AHCI mode]
Disk Controller : AMD FCH SATA Controller [AHCI mode]
USB Controller : ASUS F19 (Ryzen3/TR3 Matisse) USB 3.0 Host Controller
USB Controller : AMD F19 (Ryzen3/TR3 Matisse) USB 3.0 Host Controller

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Memory Module : (Bad)/Hynix (Hyundai) NMUD416E86-3200D 16GB DDR4 2Rx8 PC4-25600U DDR4-3200 (17-17-17-38 4-58-19-6)
Memory Module : (Bad)/Hynix (Hyundai) NMUD416E86-3200D 16GB DDR4 2Rx8 PC4-25600U DDR4-3200 (17-17-17-38 4-58-19-6)

Why does this show Bad?

Seagate Expansion Drive (F:) : 5TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Seagate ST5000DM000-1FK178 (5TB, USB3/SATA300/600, 3.5", 5980rpm, 16MB Cache)
Try leaving this drive disconnected when running Pro Tools

I don't see a firewire controller on the report(which confuses me). You might try another driver. Avid recommends using the Legacy driver, which never worked for me. The one that did work(with my 003) was the TI Compliant driver(check youtube for some help on how to change the firewire driver).

If all else fails, shop for a USB interface(Focusrite and Presonus have several options at many price points). Firewire is rapidly going the way of the dinosaur:o

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

BTW, since you have the 002rack, you might as well do a re-seat on the power harness. Pop the top off. With the unit facing you, the PSU is on the right side panel with a bundle of maybe 10-12 wires connected to one end. That's the power harness and it has 3 connection points. Pull and reseat each connection at least 6 times(to scrape off oxidation on the pins). Can't say its the solution, but you never know:D:-)

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Thank you VERY much for the insightful evaluation and suggestions!! I will look into all of these. I was also wondering about changing the firewire cable. It is probably over 10 years old.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

While I'm not sure a bad cable would cause what you describe, its always good to have a spare anyway. Plus, I have had 2 cables fail for no apparent reason:o

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

OK, I think it is finally time for a new interface to replace my faithful but aged Digi 002 rack. I would very much like to know your favorite 8 in/out Firewire 800 model. There is a lot of experience in this community that I respect and hopefully can guide me in this. Would like to stay under $2K but quality is the key. Running Windows 10 and PT 2020.7 (about to go to .10)Thanks in advance! Kent

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Just to be clear you say 8 in 8 out, but do you need ADAT or S/PDIF etc. And is that 8 mic preamps or line in do for some? How many (independent) headphone outputs needed in the box?

I would start by encouraging you to get off Firewire, it's ancient. You are likely much better served with the choices available with modern USB interfaces. What USB and other (Thunderbolt?) connectivity do you have on your PC? Can you describe the PC or post a Sandra report.

Is hardware monitoring in the interface important to you? i.e. do you rely on "low-latency monitoring" in the 002 rack today? Or do you run with small enough IO buffer size with the 002 to software monitor? And want to do that in the new interface?

The other thing you can do is look at some vendors like Motu, Focusrite, Presonus, and just see what they have on offer. Browsing Sweetwater is a good place to start. I like UAD stuff as well but it's above your price range here, and I'm hesitant to point people there unless they already are UAD plugin users/understand that trap :-)

If you want 8 great mic preamps you might want to be willing to increase that price range a bit. But define "quality is key"... and OTOH there are great value for money options out there like the Focusrite Clarett+ 8Pre USB-C. 8 mic preamps and 10 line outs and ADAT for <$1k. And the preamps will be better than your 002 (or I'll eat my hat).

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

second that

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Hello Darryl,
Wow!...Thank you for the in-depth answer - You apparently very much know you stuff!! After your response, my world has changed - NO MORE FIREWIRE. I do indeed have a USB-C connector on my computer (Sandra report in the string earlier). I never use S/PDIF and use 4 XLR mic connectors max and the rest are TRS connectors to connect an Alesis mixer and TS for direct in for bass and outboard gear such as pedal boards and a TC Helicon vocalizer. I also connect a couple of external pre-amps but would be happy to discard these if I had excellent pre-amps on the interface. As for latency, I normally run at 128 samples in my PT hardware buffer and find that quite acceptable. I just want to make sure that I buy something that plays nice with Windows and ProTools 2020X. My needs are really pretty simple compared to someone like you and other heavy hitters. Thanks again. I know time is valuable and your help is VERY much appreciated.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Oh I missed the whole first page with Sandra report. So let's go there... As Dave has mentioned before, it's concerning that Sandra reports you have bad DIMMs. And so the first thing I would look to see is if the DIMMs you are using on the motherboard manufacturer's vendor qualification list. Not something similar, or close, but the exact make and model number of DIMM with the exact same timings. With all installed DIMMs the same... in your case the DIMMs you have do *not* seem to be on the VQL for that motherboard and processor, heck there is not a single DIMM qualified with the timing reported by Sandra. https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/m..._X570_0722.pdf I would get this sorted out before going any further. Get VQL DIMMs installed and get Sandra reporting no errors.

Memory is fickle, seeing Sandra errors reported like this does not mean Pro Tools will have problems, and not seeing any errors does not guarantee much, but you just should not be using DIMMs not on the VQL. Turn off all overclocking, Pro Tools can have problems you don't see in other apps. And since you have this basic stuff wrong I'd be checking carefully _everything_ else is done OK, make sure every last optimization for Pro Tools is done. All those BIOS, cstate etc. settings. Test for problems with all plugin files removed, with and without clustered multithreading (aka AMD hyperthreading), etc. lots of standard troubleshooting steps.

---

Uh *my* needs are pretty simple, a couple of analog and AES/EBU and S/PDIF IO for recording guitar/guitar processors.

As you look at interfaces don't just look at "USB-C" connector type, look at all USB-2, USB-3.x that your computer actually supports. USB-C really only becomes important for bus powered devices with higher power-need devices, lots of other things you can get to via an adapter if needed or you have USB-A ports on the motherboard. And similarly Focusrite provide a USB-A to USB-C adapter cable with the interface I mentioned, so you typically don't actually need USB-C on the computer.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Thank you again, Darryl, for the detailed and thorough response. I will indeed look into these compatibility issues with the memory. I must admit, though, that I am hesitant to change anything. This is a new-build computer and the memory components were chosen by someone I've known for a long time with extensive AMD processor and PT experience. He's actually a systems hardware specialist working in implementing systems in hospitals and formerly for GE for the wind turbines worldwide. His builds (4 over the years) have been rock solid.
Also, this computer runs PT at very fast speeds with very low CPU usage. That said, I will explore this further. Incidentally, for the past 5 years of so, I would get this crunchy distortion on audio input recording if I left the system running for over a day or so. I have now changed my firewire cable and it appears to be resolved. Still in the wait and see mode. And again, thanks much for taking your time to respond so thoughtfully and thoroughly. Oh..and BTW, just purchased a PreSonus Quantum 2626 26x26 Thunderbolt 3 Audio Interface from Sweetwater. I hope it connects ok with my USB-C slot on my computer. I'm eager to see how this runs.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Even experienced tech may get bad batch memory, or the memory may have taken physical damage in transit. Darryl is right, you should at least try replacing the memory. If it is factory damage, you should get full refund (or swap to new modules).

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Firewire cables can cause strange things, and problems like this that happen after some period of use can be caused by lots of things, and be hard to show they have been fixed. One additional question is are you careful to make sure your system does not suspend/sleep, you've disable power management etc. as part of the systems optimization?

There is no way to know if any problems you are seeing is related to the memory in the system, but just nobody should be building systems with memory not on a VQL, and certainly not with timing that is not on a VQL. The only correct response when you point this out to them should be "oh we screwed up and will replace that with something on the VQL.".

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Points well taken and will follow up! Thanks much.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Dru dat.


And once you have used that ancient FW400 connector a lot, it eventually gets loose. Bad connections are just as bad as broken cable.


So.. IF you are confident you can do it, take pliers and squeeze the connector a little. And I mean just a little. When the cable has tighter fit to the connetor, it lessens the probability of random problems. But this is a big IF, you need to know what you are doing and how much is enough.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Thanks much for the tip. I hope to eliminate firewire with the new audio interface (PreSonus Quantum 2626 26x26 Thunderbolt 3). We'll see how if goes in a few days when it arrives!

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Uh oh. Unfortunately you are confused about Thunderbolt, which is easy to do. I suspect you will want to return the PreSonus Quantum 2626 asap and make sure you get your money back.

USB-C is just a physical connector spec, what a USB-C port delivers you have to always be careful of.

Your ASUS TUF GAMING X570-PLUS (WI-FI) motherboard has a USB-C connector, I believe delivering 3.2 Gen 2 but not Thunderbolt. And I don't think your motherboard has a Thunderbolt header (and no BIOS support?) to allow you to add a Thunderbolt adapter card (but check with ASUS or your system builder). Thunderbolt is Intel developed technology, and AMD processor motherboards had no support for Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt add-in cards (which ASUS do make at least for other motherboards) until fairly recently.

There are lots of nice Thunderbolt interfaces out there, but Thunderbolt on Windows is unfortunately not great at times, so even if your PC had Thunderbolt it's also maybe a good idea to check folks are using any exact Windows Thunderbolt setup with a particular Thunderbolt interface.

All of which I was skipping over by suggesting you look at USB interfaces.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Excellent upgrade!

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Uh would be if the computer supported thunderbolt!

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Well..yes you are correct. It IS easy to screw this up with USB-3. The PreSonus site states "Quantum 2626 is a Thunderbolt 3 compatible interface that uses the USB Type-C connector."and this " Windows 10 is the first Microsoft Operating System to fully support the Thunderbolt protocol" but further digging seems to tap into your explanation above.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

OK...Just switched my order to this one: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen USB Audio Interface. I have become hopelessly entangled in the USB 3/3.1/1st Gen/2nd Gen/Thunderbolt plate of spaghetti!! Daryll, not sure where you live, but if NYC I'd buy you dinner!

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Oops ... I just assumed ...

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Hello All
In reference to the question about the DIMM error messages in the SANDRA report, I checked with the expert I know on systems and his reply is below. As stated, my computer is working very well (in addition, a systems check in the computer shows no errors). Anyway, food for thought with the additional input. Thanks MUCH for all the assistance! Kent


In short, as long as you're not experiencing any issues (random blue screens, etc) I really wouldn't worry about it. Memory compatibility lists only show what the motherboard manufacturer has directly tested, not the entirety of what will work with the motherboard. Buying from the QVL can minimize headaches when building, but it's far from a requirement, and I rarely bother for the reasons below...

Now for the TLDR section... Almost none of these memory manufacturers, such as "Neo Forza" in your case, actually manufacture the memory chips they use. They simply purchase memory chips from one of the big three, Samsung, Hynix, or Micron, and then bundle them together on a RAM stick, or DIMM. For the type of RAM desktop computers use, there's almost no intelligent circuitry on the DIMM itself. The CPU and motherboard interface directly with the RAM chips, so the DIMM is basically just a substrate and electrical traces. The reason this is important is that it's really hard to mess up electrical traces.

In your case "Neo Forza "uses Hynix chips. I checked, and Hynix chips are listed on 463 other RAM modules/DIMM's in your motherboard's QVL. So the odds of "Neo Forza" having messed up the electrical traces on the DIMM in such a way as to make it still work as RAM, but be incompatible with your motherboard is overwhelmingly small.

I did look into "Neo Forza", and they seem like a smaller, more recent boutique manufacturer of RAM. These pop up pretty often, as the barrier to entry is pretty small. They just have to buy memory chips and put them on a DIMM, after all... but anyway, that's likely the reason ASUS never got around to testing them.

So in summary, while they're not listed on the QVL, I wouldn't be worried unless you're actually experiencing issues.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

...not following your logic at all. You are here because you *are* experiencing issues. Distortion issues and secondarily you have Sandra reporting a memory error.

And your buddy is wrong, he might have got away with stuff, he might never notice problems happening with silent corruption. Different memory vendors buy different qualified and binned chips. Memory is not just a commodity that you can assume is all the same because the chips come from the same vendor. I've been up to my ass in sourcing many $M of (custom) DIMMs for high end computer manufacturers and this stuff is nontrivial.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Hi Darryl, Thanks for the response. I'm way above my knowledge level in this discussion so just putting in various input from sources that know much more than I do!!

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Okay, challenge accepted.

Distortion here can be caused of bad memory, bad firewire, or bad external clocking. Assuming you are troubleshooting 002 only (with internal clocking) that leaves only two options.

First try another firewire cable. If it fixes internal clocking that is your easiest and cheapest fix.

If it does not work, listen to Darryl and replace your ram modules.

This is oversimplification of course, but try these first before asking further advise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Thank you everyone for the valued input. The comments about the firewire cable appear to be spot-on. Since changing the cable the distortion issues have gone away with the 002. The advise to look at upgrading my audio interface were taken to heart and I am looking forward to trying out the new focusrite scarlett 18i20 3rd gen interface I have on order. With the added knowledge of the DIMM alerts, I am on the lookout for issues that may result from this and will know what to address if/when problems occur.

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

cool

Re: Crunchy distortion with 002 rack
 

Update: I now have the focusrite scarlett 18i20 3rd gen interface. Works flawlessly and sounds great. Easy set up also. All is well.
Though, after approx 15 years of use and LOTS of music, the Digi 002 still holds a place of silent respect and rest in my rack :-)